Several comments to this post have discussed the mechanism for reversal of a representative Town Meeting action. The basis for a reversal is Massachusetts General Law (MGL) Chapter 43A section 10 which says, in part,
"If, within said seven days, a petition, signed by not less than three per cent of the registered voters of the town, containing their names and addresses as they appear on the list of registered voters, is filed with the selectmen asking that the question or questions involved in such a vote be submitted to the registered voters of the town at large, then the selectmen, after the expiration of five days, shall forthwith call a special meeting for the sole purpose of presenting to the registered voters at large the question or questions so involved."
This section of MGL differs from the Town Charter section 2-15(b) which contains this requirement.
"If, within said eight days a petition, signed by not less than six per cent of the registered voters of the town, containing their names and addresses as they appear on the list of registered voters, is filed with the select board asking that the question or questions involved in such a vote be submitted to the registered voters of the town at large"
The General Laws and the Town Charter differ on several points as shown here...
... and throughout the applicable sections of the MGL and Town Charter. Which would prevail if an Town Meeting action was challenged and the differences brought to court is not clear.
A comment asked if a permanent list of voters could be filed with the Town Clerk in opposition to every appropriation by Town Meeting.
"I ask you to check with town counsel for a legal opinion, to see if a permanent number of town voters, willing to sign a permanent override petition with the required number of registered voters and to be kept at the town clerks officer allowing any tax payer, to obtain and file for an override on expenditure that exceed 200,000 thousand dollars and presented to the B.O.S.
If this can be done, than it should be done."
I have not consulted with Town Counsel (his advice is not free, there would be a cost associated with the request) and I am not an attorney, but it seems clear the language of both the MGL and Town Charter are talking about a petition which is intiated following a Town Meeting action and pertaining specifically to that action
"Each question so submitted shall be in the form of the following question, which shall be placed upon the official ballot:—“Shall the town vote to approve the action of the representative town meeting whereby it was voted (brief description of the substance of the vote and by what vote thereon if such vote was tabulated)?” If such petition is not filed within said period of seven days, the vote of the representative town meeting shall become operative and effective upon the expiration of said period."
What do you think? Tell us in comments
Posts
23 comments:
Bill
MGL and town charter law conflict as it relates to the percentage of registered voters need on a petition and the number of days to obtain such signatures and delivered to the BOS.
” WE THE PEOPLE” ask the selectmen to authorize/allow a (permanent petition) for override/referendum to be signed by not less than 8% of registered town voters, and to be kept at the town clerk office. This signed petition, shall allow any town registered voter to obtain, for the purpose of a town wide referendum, for any expenditure voted by town meeting members that exceed 200,000 thousand dollars.
If this petition, shall be a legal means of obtaining the required percentage of town registered voters for an override, I shall be the first town registered voter to sign such petition, knowing that my name will be used for all such purpose(s) as it relates to a town wide referendum.
As chairman to the select board, this issue should be brought up before your fellow board members for discussion, and request a legal opinion from town counsel.
What say you??
For discussion sake, what would a petition of this sort say when voters were signing it?
How would one keep track of the number who are voters of the town? People die or move or stop voting.
Finally, if you can identify a number of voters who are willing to sign ANY AND ALL petitions to force a election to resolve a Town Meeting vote, then you could keep their names on file yourself. Just call them up when needed. No need for any government involvement at all.
How could this be legit? Keep a permanent list of names to be pulled out on any given item over $200k that someone has a problem with? Sort of a 'Fill in the blank' generic referendum application. Does not sound like it would pass legal muster. If you dont like a particular vote do the leg work and find the right number of people who object to that particular thing within a set time period. Yup, sounds like some work but anything that alters the vote of a legal town meeting should be.
1:07 PM Post
It is legit. Mass general law and our town charter conflict with the legal percentage needed on a town petition from registered voters, to qualify the selectmen to call for a referendum.
Example:
We the registered voters of the town of Dartmouth, knowingly sign this perpetual petition, for the sole purpose of authorizing a town override for any sum of money authorized by a vote of the Dartmouth town meeting members, that exceed 200,000 thousand dollars. And to authorize the petitioner(s) to provide the perpetual petition to the Dartmouth select board, for the sole purpose of a town wide referendum.
As the weather clears, I shall begin to gather signatures from our town registered voters. For those who are willing to call me, I shall notify selectman Trimble and ask that he allow a posting on his blog with my name and telephone number. My goal will be to obtain 2,500 signatures of town registered voters.
Will be happy to sign. Please post the info Bill. Also, if this is not legal (I hope "tea party" will do the proper research), I agree with Bill's idea of collecting names & #'s to call if needed. Town meeting is very good at spending our money even if we don't have it to spend.
Bill, thanking you for some good questions.......
What would the petition say when voters sign it?
As it relates to the town of Dartmouth charter, and all state laws, this registered town of Dartmouth voter, knowingly signed and authorize my signature to be used as a permanent town of Dartmouth petition, for the purpose of authorizing a town referendum. This petition is signed with the understanding that my signature shall be used as a permanent petition, for all town referendums.
“How can one keep track of the number who are town voters”?
I have identified each town voter, as it relates to the number of times they have voted. My computer has all this information. One of my many hobbies is identifying active, and inactive voters. Those who do not vote in town elections are part of my collection. This information becomes valuable when used in local town election. Why send a mailing to a town voter, who never votes in a town election?? Keeping track of town registered voters, is not a problem.
“People die, move, or stop voting.”
Once again, my computer will identify all voters. It's worth mentioning that the majority of town registered voters do not vote in a town election, or town referendums. The percentage is 53%. These none registered voters shall be my target.
As it relates to government involvement.....I agree to keep the petition in my personal files. Why local government scew up a good thing??
I enjoy debating. (Thanks you)
Since it is clearly obvious we who post all have computers, I would suggest posters contact the Town Meeting members and let them know their concerns on the spending patterns of Town Meeting with respect to CPC (and any other) projects. The names, addresses, and phone numbers of each precinct's members are on the Town Website. Click on the "Where Do I Go For" "More" section at the bottom of the home page.
Maybe if the Town Meeting members got enough calls from irate or concerned citizens as to how they so willingly fall into spending our money on CPC (or other) projects, some of which are questionable at best, maybe our money would not be slipping through our hands with such abandon.
Our Town Meeting members are supposed to vote the consensus of their respective precincts. How are they to accurately do that if they are unaware of their precinct's wishes?
The Dartmouth Town website is a wealth of information for those who have not yet looked into it. Among the information included are the email addresses of the town employees and meeting agendas of the town's boards and committees. At some point there is no excuse to not voice your concerns, ask questions, or give your opinion on any issue.
I suggest we do just that.
Lots of pot-stirring from a couple posters. Yes, call your TM rep and be irate, let them really know how you feel and how they are throwing money down the drain. What a laugh. The town is in better financial shape than it has been in years and years thanks to the efforts of many people-yes even TM members. Yet its still not good enough and you're IRATE. Might I suggest you become involved (besides stroking your magic and all-inclusive computer keyboard - keeping track of all voters, addresses, dead or alive) and put your energies to better use.
As to your Quixotic goal of keeping some 'Master Petition Signature List' you may be right in that the town charter and state rules on % oof voter signatures are required, however it is clear that in both cases the intent is to have a substantial number of registered voters sign a petition for a specific item, not a small percent for any referendum that comes along....
Anonymous Jan. 18 @ 11:19 AM
Why.... we the people need a easier way of calling for an override.
You brought forth some sound advise. And in a perfect town, I would agree with your post. But in the town of Dartmouth, it won't work. Allow me to explain; most.... if not all elected town meeting members are TMM because they have an agenda, or special interest, as it relates to spending.
As you so stated, the town web site has names, address, and telephone numbers of town meeting members, and appointed members, along with elected.
Many town meeting members, are town employee's.
Police officers
school teachers
school administrator's
town officer workers
board of health members
planning board members
park board members
harbormasters
Asst harbor masters
fin com members
selectmen
DNRT members
CPC members
Historic members
parents who have school children
all those related to one or both of the above mentioned
The above mentioned all sit in the same select building location, along with those who are not related, or have a common interest. Do you feel that these elected town meeting member will not be effected by those of interest??
Imagine that! Parents with school children are Town Meeting members. Oh the scandal of it all!
@ January 22, 8:19
I hear you - parents might have an interest in the running of the Town? What agenda could they have? Maybe they should just sit in the back row and shut up? Same with people who might be interested in historic preservation or public safety. They should just all sit in the side aisles and take what comes.
I notice you did not mention retired people or senior citizens in your list of culprits and yet they seem to be the majority filling the seats. Why don't they register on your list of 'special interests'? Or do you think they are the nly ones who should have a say in the governining of OUR town?
Typical tea party revolt man,
He probably is sitting in his medicare scooter too.
While you sit and stir, most of us are involved. If a parent wants to be involved and improve schools, I say GO FOR IT.
If you want to sit at home, GO FOR it...but don't stir in your seat too long, you may have to see a Doctor about enlarged Hemmroids
I think what Jan. 19th, 8:14 is trying to say is that Town Meeting members should not use that forum for their own self-preservation or their own interests because they represent more than themselves and their vote is meant to reflect that.
If I am incorrect in my read, please correct me.
I think what January 19 is saying is clear enough to me. He is complaining that those members of TM only vote for their own limited interests. I say that's nonsense. There has always been an undercurrent on this blog against those who actually participate in town government be they parents policemen etc... The gripe is constant from some that the only role of government is to cut costs and any other efforts are to serve some selfish, private motive. Look at the list he typed up - a pretty reasonable representation of actual, tax paying Dartmouth residents. If thats not a fair representation of who should be making the rules that govern our town then I don't know what is.
I get tired of that attitude and say to them get involved and not just at the keyboard.
6:06 PM
Talk the talk.........at the next town meting, see how many teachers leave after the school budget is passed.
@ 3:54 - ABsolute nonssense. Very few teachers are in fact TM members, as for them leaving after a school budget vote, more nonsense. The last TM where the school budget was voted on (early in the session) there was still a substantial quorum after the vote. Same can't be said about the last TM when the place cleared out with no school budget on the table.
January 20, 10:04 pm & January 21, 6:06 pm: what makes you think that people who post here are not involved? You're way off base. I would be willing to bet that if the identities of all those who post under "anonymous" were known, you'd be in for a big surprise.
And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, a large number (maybe even the majority) of Town Meeting members are town/school employees and their family and friends, and I wonder if it couldn't logically be concluded that many of the members who leave the meeting after articles of particular significance aren't these same people.
And I wonder if their vote represents what would be equitable for the entire Town or solely for their own personal gain?
I guess you believe that posters should not be disgusted about that.
@ 11:22 - what disusts me is the complaints about who participates in Town affairs. There are plenty of empty TM seats and few run for elected offices. If you have an interest get involved. Stop complaining about who actually participates and gives of their time and talent and do something other than rant here. Your list of TM participants make up a wide cross section of who lives in town so why should'nt they participate? What segment of the town have you left out of your list of so-called 'special interest' groups?
I'm a parent of school children and a town meeting memnber. You bet I am interested in what happens at town meeting and in the town in general and I'll be a member for as long as I please. And vote too.
PS - I pay taxes too so why should'nt I get a say.
January 29 @ 2:56 PM
So you are a parent of school children, a town meeting member, interested in what happens, and you pay taxes. You point out that you are a town meeting member because you are interested in what happens at town meeting, and the town in general. You are a tax payer.
I must question your mental stability for becoming a parent. In my opinion, bringing a child into this world should be considered a form of early child abuse. Children are nice, but they didn't ask to be born, you chose to bring them into this world, take good care of your child. This world is full of trickery.
Your child is a member of the school student body and occupies a seat in a school classroom. You have put your child under the controlling influence of a (school teacher) that you know nothing about. What type of parent would do such a thing? The answer is simple, you have no control over the teacher that will influence your child.
As a town meeting member, you will be voting on a 70 million plus dollar budget, do you understand what you shall be voting for, 90% of town meeting members have no idea. It's nice to be a town meeting member, but most if not all town meeting members have no idea what they are voting on.
As a tax payer, I want to congratulate you for being a home owner, or should we say a mortgage payer? If you attend the annual town meeting, you are a town employee.
The town of Dartmouth is on the brink of financial expiration. The state is in financial default. Public education is a failure. Good luck......you will need it.
I have 475 signatures from registered town voters. I will continue until I have 2,000. The names shall be turned over to the town clerk for verification and returned back to be kept in my personal files. I have a front and rear body sign that states "stop the town from overspending" sign my petition for a continues override.
@ 2:56 - off the meds again?
The town of Dartmouth is on the brink of financial expiration
And the Hindenburg just crashed into the mall!!! The Town has 6 Million in reserve account, while most communities are 6 Million in the hole, trust when you wake up in the morning the sky will not be falling.
Post a Comment