The City of Providence faces a severe budget crunch and has sent dismissal notices to all its teachers. This action has generated a lot of comments on other threads. I would note the notices were not necessarily sent to get rid of bad teachers, rather due to a budget crisis. This Providence Journal article says the seniority system is being bargained and a deal is expected.
Providence mayor Angel Taveras said,
"Spending reductions are inevitable. It is also inevitable that some portion of cuts will come from the school budget. This is why we faced the difficult decision of sending letters to all teachers: we do not yet know what actions will be required and believe it was only fair to let all teachers know about the severity of the situation."
Some comments to other posts have raised the question on ...
... how to get rid of teachers who do not get results. This is a problem in public schools under collective bargaining. I think the answer is first to provide training and guidance to those teachers who are not getting good results. Of course, the crux of the matter is how you measure teacher performance. I have not a clue. But this is not rocket science, there are schools who have consistently good instruction. Find out the how and why and implement that. If after a period of time, a teacher's results do not improve then it is appropriate to talk about termination.
Before anyone gets their undergarments in a wad, I am not trying to supplant or circumvent the School Committee here. I am just providing a forum to debate the issue which was already taking place in comments to other posts.
UPDATE: AFT leader suggests teacher evaluations
Posts
26 comments:
Dartmouth school committee members should fire all Dartmouth teachers, prior to April 1, 2011. BLINK....no more D.E.A. Union. On July 1, 2011 fiscal year the Dartmouth school principals can begin to hire or rehire qualified teachers. Don't look too surprise. The Dartmouth educators association has been feeding off the system for too many years. The problem is not with the teachers as it is with the teachers union. Several years ago, when the town was confronted with a large fiscal shortfall all town employee's, except the teachers union refused to pass on their salary increase. This was just like a mother throwing it's youngest child into quick sand and stepping on the child so as to not sink into the quick sand. Remember all the school students you threw to the wolfs, when the Dartmouth teachers union refused the 750,000 thousand dollar educational grant? The school committee members where all for the grant but a clause attached to the money grant required Union approval. You people should drown in your own greed. You deserve to be fired. My regret, I'm not doing the firing.
"If after a period of time, a teacher's results do not improve then it is appropriate to talk about termination."
I have read many posts regarding the need for more school funding and the mantra that the children cannot wait. How many times have we heard that you only get to do 1st grade once or 6th or 9th? Why should we provide more training and guidance? How long will that take and are the children still being exposed to this incompetent teacher or are we paying another teacher to fill in while the "training" is going on? Then what happens? Do we still have to go through the long process of fighting the union for termination? This is a ridiculous situation. Ending the public employees unions will put an end to this nonsense. I support Gov. Walker completely and any other public figure who tries to do the same thing.
Hold on a minute isn't this all for the children? Did I miss something? There is no way this community would send back grant money simply because the union said to, right? I mean isn't education all about the children and making sure our kids have every advantage going forward?
I agree. Fire them all but the problem is all of the principals who would be doing the hiring come from the same "its for the children" group.
A contract is signed by two parties. If one side does not agree to the conditions, they don't sign. However, after the contract is signed, it should be honored. The time to change things is at the table not the way Gov.Walker is trying to do it.
There are other states that don't even have labor union and they are also facing budget shortfalls. Someone should ask Gov. Walker why he voted to give tax cuts to wealthy?
to: February 28, 2011 8:26 AM
Gov. Walker inherited the problems. So did the taxpayers of Wisconsin. Your point seems to be regardless of how poor the agreements were made in the past, they must be honored? As Gov. Walker stated on Meet the Press yesterday, there are over 400 jurisdictions that negotiated the deals that the state cannot afford. You would hold him responsible for that? That is as much of a joke as the two heads of the unions affected out there stating that the unions will make concessions. As in they really think they can revise over 400 separate collective bargaining agreements just like that? I am sure your solution is a huge tax increase correct?
8:28 PM
I agree with you, but it's not a perfect world. Principals were once teachers and so it continues.
I am a retired Dartmouth Middle school custodian. I worked at the Dartmouth middle school for many years, did my work, happy to have a job, and enjoyed the students. Teaching school kids is not an easy job. Through out my years, I became quite friendly with most teachers and students. Like all things in life, I found that not all teachers are equal. Teaching is not an easy thing to do and some students don't belong in a class room.
Did we have not so good teachers that should have been fired, absolutely. Not more than three/ four that I would not want teaching my kids. There are approximately 95 teachers at the middle school, so three or four, not so good teachers, is a small number. The problem is the teacher, not the school. The administrator know these teacher(s) should be fired, but the teachers union will fight tooth and nail, along with the MTA. The union and the MTA will make any administrators life so difficult that he/she will not be able to administer the school.
A group of class room students, circulated a petition to have a teacher removed from their class room, because they were not learning. All the students signed the petition. These were all honor students. Don't believe me, go back in time and ask the middle school principle, he lives in Dartmouth. Now, should the school committee fire all the middle school teachers ? How would you like it if your kid is assigned to the same three/four teachers??
This is what happens when we elect individuals that have no clue of what it's like to run a large town like this and worse yet they have no knowledge of the town, like it's history, You need to know were we've been to better direct where we are going. Joe Michaud said that "that we need to run this town like they would run a large corporation in the private sector" sound great ! but the problem is if we did that at least 4 of the 5 selectboard members would be fired the first day including Joe Michaud. Ask your self one question are we better off today then we was 5 years ago, My answer is NO According to the last election Joe Michaud lost in every precinct in town, but won in Lakeville maybe he should go there. "Save education lets layoff some incompetent selectmen"
In Massachusetts in 2011, the average public school teacher will earn approximately $71,000 in salary. Plus the defined benefit plans. One of the highest compensation rates for teachers in this country. Far exceeding the salary and benefits of comparable private school teachers. Rhode Island teacher expense is only slightly less. Source: National Educators Association. Is this fair to the taxpayer? Different performance measures indicate that the typical Massachusetts student does comparatively well when compared to their peer group nationally. But certainly not in the top 2 or three rankings in all of the peer group measures. I am not presenting any judgments; just facts and the inevitable question of are we receiving fair value in return?
To 11:41am,
NEWSFLASH:
The campaign is over.
instead of Mass as a whole...look at Dartmouth...no where near the average in salaries or benefits.....a 50/50 split and in 2009 and average of 57k or so....
Joe lost because he ran as a fically conservative Republican in a district that is 4-1 Democrat against the hack son of a senor part of the local Machine. The machine is strong. Just look at how Chris Saunders crowned himself as the new $63,000 a year part time county treasurer and then placed that tired old hack Mitchell into his $35,000 a year part part time countt commissioner. Anything with a pay check attached they get.
Joe also stepped on the toes of Miller, Richie Medeiros and the rest of that corrupt group of old townie clowns. He fired Gagne and forced changes with the rest of senior leadership.
Your're right "you was probably better off" under that corrupt group of hacks.
Look around you (well not you because your opinion doesn't matter and facts have no influence. Every other community is cutting to the bone but Dartmouth. We just started full day K, have made significant improvements to the adminstration of town government and have a pretty good idea about where we're heading financially. All while lowering fees and residential taxes and maintaining a great business climate.
I agree. All that just happened. Joe obviously had nothing to do with that. Even though he grew up in Dartmouth Joe obviously has no idea about where we've been or maybe he did no about where we've been and wanted to change it?
Comparitively well? As in #1 in the nation in language and math?
In today S-T, we find an editorial piece that attempts to address some of the thoughts and emotions that commonly exist regarding public service employees. As is often the case with S-T editorials, it badly misses the point. In this poorly written opinion piece, it attempts to point to emotion from the public sector and point it towards the public service employees as a whole. This is certainly not the case in my own experience. Perhaps other people see things differently? I see and hear a general appreciation for the work performed by the average public service employee. I see and hear a general frustration with the seniority based collective bargaining union system. And its excess costs. Especially in these very difficult economic times. Separating the system from the people in it seems to be something that the public service unions have no intention of doing. Much of the rhetoric from the unions is intended to create emotional and personal based responses. This is nothing more than fanning the fires and is completely counterproductive to solving the problems that need to be solved. Retaining good public sector employees at reasonable costs is completely acceptable to most people I know. Another substandard opinion from the S-T.
To: March 2, 2011 2:17 PM
The average public sector teacher in Massachusetts is the second highest paid teacher in the country. Major standard performance rankings of the average student here range from first to fourth. Does the word comparative meet your standard now? Or are you going to continue to cherry pick statistics to support your feeble argument?
Earlier this week, Bill Gates was the subject of a story on the evening news relative to one of his projects. The project is to assess what we are doing right and what we are doing wrong in our schools. It was no surprise that the initial findings found no relationship to teacher seniority and student performance. Findings also show that minor changes in class size have no effect when a talented and motivated teacher oversees the class. Mr. Gates is a strong proponent of teacher evaluations and additional compensation for teachers that perform at higher levels. I am certain this makes a lot of sense to most people. Of course, the unions oppose all of the above.
To the blogger who claims the average teacher here in Dartmouth makes $57k, please disclose your source and where it can be seen by other people.
http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/massachusetts/teacher-salary-in-dartmouth/
average teacher salary in Dartmouth.
any more questions?
To:March 5, 2011 3:00 PM
As suspected, your statistic of the average teacher in Dartmouth being $57k is seriously distorted.
For those who choose to know the real numbers, the average for the time frame cited on this website is approximately $65k after removing a highly misleading pre-school teacher average salary of approximately $29k. The range from elementary through high school is $62-66K (173 of the 263 teachers are listed as elementary school teachers making over $66k on average).
According to this website, these statistics are at least 2 years old.
Not that I am at all surprised by this tactic of avoiding the truth and spreading misinformation. Unions do it all the time. It is otherwise called collective bargaining. From the union’s perspective.
Re: the piece on ABC about Bill Gates and education, he has also documented no direct relationship between more educated teachers and student performance. We pay more for a more educated teacher, but we may be getting no more in return.
One of the front page stories in today’s S_T has a proposal from the major teachers unions in the state proposing cuts in health care benefit costs. In return the unions ask for retention of “sacrosanct” collective bargaining rights. Essentially the same failed strategy used in Wisconsin. Clearly this is no more than posturing and playing to the public for sympathy. Nothing more than setting up the finger pointing or blame game. Reform of the system is what is needed, not just a band aid. Since each jurisdiction is independently negotiated with local unions, this posturing is transparent in its uselessness. Nowhere in the article did I see one hint of any concession that would amount to much needed and overdue reform.
We can either continue to dismiss problems like this, much as Mr. Barnes did at last night’s SB meeting with his cavalier attitude, or take these issues seriously. This is not about dismissing these types of problems with statements to the effect of “99.9% of other municipalities” failed to accrue for future liabilities so it is no big deal Dartmouth failed also. Mr. Barnes clearly showed his inexperience and lack of expertise in finance that caused me to question how seriously he takes his job. Is Mr. Barnes so inbred in municipal accounting that he is part of the problem and not part of the fix?
His cavalier comment about municipalities formerly used a “pay as you go” method of accounting for liabilities such as retirement and health benefits due to be paid was scary. As in, we just will have to go back to the taxpayer when we have to?
" after removing a highly misleading pre-school teacher average salary of approximately $29k"....why?...they are teachers licensed by the state to teach pre-school...just because they screw up your argument? AND even if you include them 66k ISNT 71K....and thats the average....Thats Dartmouth...strive to be average.
I have seen numerous posts in here about how well some of the pension investments have performed. Take a disastrous year like 2008 (or Black Friday, the dot.com crash, or the 9/11 crash) and see what it does to your investments:
Value Earn % Earn $ End value
$100 -50% $(50) $50
50 8% 4 54
54 8% 4 58
58 8% 5 63
63 8% 5 68
68 8% 5 $73
The base year value was $100, but the current value is $73. But the funds earned 8% for the next 5 years?
Point being, assuming funds earn a certain amount per year works when they are continuing to add to the fund value. Factor in one of the 4 market disaster years since 1986 and you better look at what the fund is worth then and now to see if it made anything. That is one of the many funding issues that face the taxpayers with defined benefit plans. Good, bad or indifferent; defined contribution plans pose no such risk.
To: March 8, 2011 11:56 AM
Removing pre-school teachers that don't even exist in many communities does not screw up my argument, including them screwed up yours.
Over the last two or three years, salaries have increased in Dartmouth. That doesn't screw up my argument, it screws up yours. So the average is not $66k now is it?
Citing old and flawed information was not my point, it was yours.
Got any other flawed and inaccurate information to present here?
yes theyve increased....i believe the SC negotiated a zero and 2% increase that took 16 months....oh wait here comes the overpaid argument.....how exactly can you get an average excluding some of the base? sounds like cherry picking.....very popular here to support arguments.
To: March 9, 2011 6:17 AM
Let’s discuss why it took so long to negotiate the last contract with the DEA. No different than other contracts negotiated over the last several years. Why? What was the union asking for? What did it want for salary and wage increases and other additional compensation? How long did it take to get through to the union that the answer was NO on big compensation increases? So was the union leadership being reasonable? Of course not. They settled because they would look like crap in the current economy and they knew it. No chance of the large tax override that they would have only been too happy to pass onto the taxpayer to pay for big compensation increases. That’s why it took so long isn't it?
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