The Commonwealth has a new process for applying for so called "pothole" funding. Our state representatives were able to get wording into the bill that allows Dartmouth to get money because we host UMass Dartmouth in the town. We will not qualify as in past years for money due to the increase in Voke assessment as that increase has leveled off.
A police cruiser was damaged in an accident and is beyond repair. There is a car available for only $14,000 that was left over from the Commonwealth's purchases of FY08. The town will ask the Finance Committee for a transfer of funds from the FY09 Reserve Fund to buy the car.
Wednesday, August 6 is the deadline for getting any questions on the November ballot.
Like sands though the hourglass, thus are the days of our lives. Therefore, be excellent to each other.
Friday, August 1, 2008
Miscellaneous notes
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111 comments:
So if the deadline is Aug 6th I suppose there will be no questions - how timely.
There is still time for questions. Aug 6th is Wednesday. If people want questions on the ballot, they probably already know what they want. I suppose a meeting to iron out the question is in order. I'm sure this topic has been discussed among different departments ongoing. They should know what they want to ask. yes?
You would think so anonymouos 3:47 however since there has been no discussion never mind consensus building that would be necessary to give any question a chance of success I suspect its a moot point. Too bad as far as I'm concerned but not surprising unfortunately.
Does the town have insurance for damage done to police cars? Will the town pay the whole $14,000?
Please help the students and put a textbook and technology question on the ballot. It would cost the homeowner a small amount if passes, around $40 year. The idea of the other small override question for the return of middle school French, and an elementary librarian with SAILS interlibrary loan is good too. The return of music to Kindergharten and 3rd grade would be beneficial (has been cut)...The frequenxccy of art and art materials have been cit and underfunded too. There should be a few seperate small education questions on the ballot. Thank you for considering Bill and other leaders. Voters should have the chance to vote on these items, each time there is a chance to vote.
Sorry typos/spelling.
The School Committee and Steve Rusell, admin. should enthusiastically support the student needs and put a few questions together. To not do this is remiss. Hopefully the Select Board will call Steve this week to make him aware of the deadline and to discuss the true classroom and programming needs. The Select Board leads for a quality community and this means funded and supported education. Thank You for championing the students and the future.
Hi Bill, Would you be willing to lead the organization of the wording with School Admin/ SB vote ASAP on a few reasonable education override questions for this Nov. 1)Text/Tech, 2)Music/Art, 3)Foreign languages Middle School/School Libraries. Please Call Steve Russell Monday on the students/parents behalf to help expedite the process. Thank you so much.
Hopefully Bill will do no such thing. The people who voted for Mr. Trimble are tired of override questions and the assumption that more money will solve everything. I think you should approach Ms. Dias and Mr. Carney who believe in throwing taxpayer money at the problem rather than making the tough choices.
If SB and Sc agree on a question. Let the voters decide in Nov. That is the fair thing to do. When is the meeting between the two
I think it has been fair. We have had multiple override questions over the past couple of years. There should be a limit.
A limit? Who determines the right number? 2 questions have been asked. After the last question many said they were bundled too much and said they would vote for a text/tech only question. What's changed? It costs nothing and only takes leadership to move a discussion forward. The much delayed joint meeting is too late for this fall if the Aug 6th deadline is correct since the meeting is scheduled for August 19th.
It costs nothing??? The Aug. 2007 override question was the only thing on the ballot. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I would say that it costs the town some money to hold an election. Also there have been more than two elections with override questions. Are you forgetting Officer Mello? As far as what has changed??? THE ECONOMY!!!
There is a presidential election in November so to add an override question(s) costs nothing. There have been 2 school override questions which is what I was referring to since the topic seemed to be discussing school needs. I have not forgotten the economy, I live here too and have to deal with the same things you do but also understand the value of a good education, and there reallly is no need to shout.
i am weary of the override questions as well, but let's not forget t hat the voters did not support officer mello or the schools.
The SC & Dr. R must be aware of this deadline for questions. What do they say. I have not heard anything from school yet. Don't they usually come to the SB with their question concerning their needs?
The SC and Russell should support the student needs and the parent outcry for essential materials and basic curricula and functioning school libraries. Discuss the ovverride Monday please. many parents want education supported and funded, attempted. It would cost $100 a year. Why can't $100 go on ballot, Please Bill support the student needs.
Leopards cant change their spots. He doesnt support education.Calling repeatedly for the termination of extra-curricular activities isnt supporting education. opposing the transfer for textbooks isnt supporting education. why would he start now?
I have never heard Mr. Trimble call to end sports. He has said that books/tech. needs should come before sports, and I agree. When I was in HS there were 9 sports, now there are almost 20.
Sports are nice but books come first.
I've heard him come out against sports more than once. Ask him yourself. i did, and he clearly stated that he would eliminate sports and music extras before supporting an override for the schools.
I do not oppose sports or band. I just think that they have to have lower priority than classroom instruction and instructional materials. I have posted about school priorities here and here
i think when people ask if you support music and sports in our current situation, they are not asking if you like them, they are asking if you are willing to support them with your decisions and your vote on the SB. you have stated previously, more than once that they are not part of minimum net school spending and you would be willing to let them go.
My position is that athletics and music have a lower priority than textbooks and teachers. If funds are limited and they are, then classroom instruction and instructional materials should be funded before sports and music. A relatively small portion of students receive any benefit from the sports and music programs, but every student must learn to read and understand math and science. I want to put resources where we receive the greatest benefit. Do you agree with that?
Over 400 students participate in athletics at the Highschool, i believe it is close to 200 participating in music. That is nearly half the school. not to mention the drama club, colorguard and supporting student volunteers. Furthermore, the whole atmosphere of the school will change if we expect these students to go to school hit the books and go home. These organizations raise $2-300,000 every year. i disagree that we cannot afford to fund these activities, i also disagree that they have little impact on the school or the individuals who benefit from them directly or indirectly. Also if you look at the piece of pie that goes towards music and athletics and then compare that to the awards, accolades, scholarships received and influence on college entrance apps. and the general pride and spirit generated at the school and community, how can you treat them as having little value? Do some research, talk to students, talk to the principal and guidance counselors and coaches etc.
The same kids play sports each season. My nephew plays football in the fall, winter it's basketball, spring it's baseball. When I was in school there were about 9-10 sports offered, now I think there are close to 20. That's over the top.
The band parents have always been very active with fund raisers. I know kids who have played in the band for four years.If I had to choose, I would cut some of the sports and keep band. All activities have value. We cannot afford everything.I would love if my kids had classes with 15 students too.
We just cannot had it all.
Where on earth did you come up with a desire for 15 kids/class, 'band over sports'?
No one has ever advocated such a thing for the public schools as desirable as it might be. To throw that out there is just another red herring to distract from the real issues.
Real issues should be textbooks and technology for the students. Band, and sports should be part of an override.
I give Ellen H. a lot of credit for asking the SC and Dr.R. to listen to parents and give children the tools they need to succeed. In her letter today she points out New Bedford's Dr. Portia Bonner is already having discussions about education needs. What's wrong with Dartmouth??
I seem to remember early last year several public meetings at all the schools to discuss priorities and the upcoming budget. I also remember these were publicized in a number of places and yet extremly poorly attended. 50 people or less per event. Its not like they didnt try.
If there is such an outcry from the parents where are they??? I attended several school informational forums and not many people were there. The voter turnout for the last override wasn't as large as the special election in Aug. 2007. That vote was very close. So why didn't the school override pass this time if all the parents were out voting?
I have spoken to many parents and the they have had enough. They are tired of the way the schools are being run and the constant excuses from administration. The schools are not even getting the support they need from the parents. How do you expect to get support from the rest of the community?
Parents should be the number one advocates for their children. Ellen H. is one of the parents who feels strongly about education. I'm not sure if other parents are busy or just ill informed, but parents should be asking the SC and Dr. R. about a serious plan for textbooks and technology. These are the people that decide what tools your children will have to be successful. I hope Ellen runs for SC because she seems honest and willing to put herself out there for the sake of the children. Some on the SC now are just 'yes men' for Dr. R.
Just because you stand up and criticize the school administration in public doesn't make you a successful advocate for children. In fact I would argue that in many cases it is that public display of constant negativity that does more harm than good.
School policies should be re-evaluated routinely so that the changing needs of the students and the increase in cost to provide education can be met.
Constructive criticism should not be seen as negative.
You may consider it a 'public display', however that is just what is needed so that our elected SC starts to listen to parents. Some of them act like robots. Dr. R. pulls the strings.
The SC and Dr. R. should be accountable to the parents in this town. Textbooks and technology should be a priority in the school budget.
Repeatedly stating that textbooks and technology should be a priority doesn't mean they aren’t a priority. It just means in your opinion they aren’t, but in mine they are along with many other high priority needs that the children of the town are consistently doing without. I commend Dr. R and the SC for holding their ground against the likes of people like you who try to turn the parents against them by saying they aren't making books and technology a priority and you won't support the schools until that happens. That is just pure BS and yet another excuse, red hearing, whatever you want to call it not to support the schools. I flat out do not agree with you Bill that we must cut sports, music or arts (yes Ellen that is what Bill is saying Art which you cherish will be next after sports and music) in order for textbooks and technology to become a priority. So please save it for there are many parents that see right through the excuses and are truly sick and tired of listening to it!
Thank you anonymous 11:50. mr. Trimble is an advocate for his own wallet and nothing else. i also am sick of hearing non-parents talk about how little parents care about their child's education. you have no idea how many parents volunteer, fundraise, run the PTO's, donate goods and services and yes attend meetings. There is also a large online network of parents sharing info from meetings and general school issues. many people are not comfortable in the spotlight, but that doesn't mean they are non-participatory or don't care.
I think that there are parents who are just apologists for a failing school system. I challenge them to name the high priority spending items that take precedence over textbooks and teachers. What are they? A new administrator or more support staff? Name them please. If textbooks and technology are a priority, then why are they not funded? Apparently some here feel that criticism, even that which is well deserved, cannot be uttered because then the schools won't get more money. But people already know that the administration doesn't have the right priorities and that is why they don't get more. They will send it on consultants for the football team and more bureaucrats, not the kids. If you really want to increase school funding, get behind the critics and get the school administration to change their ways.
How about holding onto good teachers, how about fuel oil to heat the schools? it all costs money. Its not a question of the right priorities its a question of your priorities. The new administrator they hired is 10,000 less than the one their replacing. If teachers were hired where would they teach--there's no available classrooms since the building were closed. When the textbook problem is solved whats the next herring to be lobbed at the school dept? Fill in the blank " No override for the schools until they_______ I think Bill T should make up a plan listing the next 5 to ten herrings to be lobbed at the school dept so they can plan for the future with MNSS
Again just vague references to nothing. Blame BillT for the failure of the schools but you are the ones that are not willing to hold them accountable for results. Who closed the school buildings? This school administration has been terrible. Hold them accountable for their bad decisions.
oh yes the doubling of fuel prices is nothing. The fact we are losing good teachers to other towns over pay is nothing. All this and more takes money from the "priorities". I never blamed Bill T for the school problems however lobbing herrings to excite his followers without checking the facts with the school dept is reckless. Bill continues to praise the Barnstable ten year plan as a basis for our spending planning yet in the first paragraph it clearly states "this document should not be interpreted as a spending plan" and such language as "expenditure projections were made based on a variety of assumptions which allow them to fall within available resources" this tells me they fudged the numbers to get them to fit yet Bill keeps calling for this style of plan.
Where is the integrity to the 'no' people's arguments about not wanting to fund a modest overide for texts and technology?
The'priorities' argument is yet another excuse as can plainly be seen if one bothers to follow the history of this debate. Closing schools is now a given, over crowded Quinn and Middle School is a fact of life,fees for sports are now a given, as are fees for busses, music and numerous other 'extras' taken for granted no too long ago. Many teaching and administrative positions have bee cut or not re-filled, library hours at the MS have been slashed in half, languages have been limited and pushed back till 8th grade, and in fact texts/tech has been funded every single year - however that line item has been limited so purchases have fallen behind.
None of these cuts are new and they have been well publicized for those that care to listen.
But now that we have been reduced to asking for a small amount of additional funding to help bring text/tech purchases up to date you folks hollor 'priorities' and conveniently igonre all that has been given up in the past couple years to help cover rising costs for everything from health care to fuel to transportation.
A side bar to the 'priorities' is the 'where's the plan'? Mr. Trimble carps that if the school has a plan it should not be a distant memory. Well Mr Trimble, thats the sort of smart alecky response I would have come to expect from many elected officials in this town, I am surprised and dissappointed that you feel the need to get down to that level.
wow ..bordering on meaniful discussion at long last
If you read the Barnstable plan, the assumptions are clearly laid out and available. With any future event, you are going to have to make some assumptions, such as the level of new growth or state funding. Or the level of increase in fuel costs. If you base these on historical trends and current forecasts, it is likely, but not assured, that you will be in the ball park. In Dartmouth, we know from historical data that our revenue will not cover our expenses going forward. I don't think there is any disagreement on that point. Therefore it seems prudent to plan on how we are going to resolve that gap. If we have no plan, then we will continue to find ourselves in a crisis at the beginning of each budget cycle. I would rather not continue in that vein. Decisions are rushed and priorities are not addressed. Closure of the Gidley and Cushman schools falls in that category I think.
To say that we are losing teachers to other districts due to our pay scale is just not true. The teachers are in the third year of a three year contract that provides a 3% raise every year. If you are a new hire and on steps, you are getting over 6% a year. Our teachers are not lagging behind others in the area.
To characterize my comment about planning as smart alecky puzzles me somewhat. I have stated a position that a plan is needed and must then be followed. That is my sincere hope and belief. In my job as an engineer, one motto we live by is, plan the work and work the plan. Otherwise you find that parts aren't there when you need them, contractors are not available or you get to the end and find things left out. Good managers plan for the future, don't you think?
Oh Please. If textbooks were a priority they would be funded. It's all a big game that he school department plays so that they can 'have it all'. No one can 'have it all'.
Don't blame Mr. Trimble for school spending. Town Mtg give the school the money and only they decide how to spend it. To fund textbooks or not is their call. If you are unhappy with any school spending...go talk to SC and Dr. R.
Also, I am happy that there are a lot of concerned parents. Too bad they never show up at any SC meetings.
Ellen is the only one who has the courage to speak in public and challenge school spending with those who are responsible.
Ok working on that assumption to fund textbooks requires cutting something else. to fund teachers we cut something else. but wait if we cut something that becomes a priority to some the next year. At MNSS there are very few choices about where to spend anything.
The schools will already be receiving money from the reserve fund and now they want more. It never stops and there are always excuses. Now it will be the cost of utilities and other expenses rising. What was it last year??? I can't remember. Oh yes, the cost of utilities and other expenses rising. Do you think a plan may have helped? We'll never know because the schools and the town still don't have one.
This is just too funny. Mr. Trimble has no say whatsoever about how school money is spent yet you continually attack him. Do you attack Dr. Russell or the members of the SC in the same manner? I doubt it. Yet they are the ones responsible for school spending. They are the ones who have failed but instead you attack those who point it out and call for better management.
Sports, Art, Music and other activities do not have to be cut. They need to be funded after textbooks. They need to be funded by the school,donations, and overrides.
Why is it that parents spend out of pocket for all of these activities from K-8th grade and when HS begins they want to have the school budget pay for all of it?
Textbooks first.
Mr. Trimble - you twist words. I did not characterize your desire to have a plan as being smart alecky. Your response about my insuffcient recollection of the school plan was smart alecky.
You also state as fact that 'only a small portion of students benefit from music and sports'.
Is that a fact? Do you have any substantiation for that statement? Having attended musical performances at 2 elementary schools and the High School this year as well as several sporting events it is my belief that a great many students benefit from these activities. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that at least half the student population particpates in some musical or athletic performance, and yet you dismiss this as a 'relatively small number'. As an elected representative I would hope you research your statements before you make them as you do have many devotees who repeat your statements as gospel truth even when they are less than accurate.
Can you agree that a greater number of students benefit from classroom instruction and adequate instructional materials than benefit from sports and band? That is my point.
Thank you for your concern about the proper conduct of elected officials. If you have the numbers for those students participating in sports and band versus those who are involved in academic studies, please provide them and show how my facts are in error. For now, I am still maintaining that a rigorous curriculum and good instruction is of greater benefit to more students than extracurricular activities.
http://www.helium.com/items/767002-benefits-of-extra-curricular-activities-for-teens
http://www.nasaa-arts.org/publications/critical-evidence.pdf
Mr. Trimble, you still are twisting words and nuancing your earlier statements. Of course we all want a rigorous curriculum, that goes without saying. I am not the elected official that stated categorically that a 'relatively small number of students benefit from music and athletics' - you stated that without benefit of facts to back up your statement. Can we agree on that? As a parent I attend many school events including musical performances and athletic events and it is my already admittedly unscientific observation that there are hundreds of students is not over a thousand that participate in these events. Hardly a 'relatively small number'. Here is an example Mr. Trimble - the Quinn School puts on a spring and winter musical performance - the grade that my child is in put on a performance that included over 100 students alone. That's 1 grade level in one of three elementary schools, my daughter participates in a similar series of performances with roughly 80 students participating. I am aware that each school and each grade level does similar performances and more each year. None of my kids particpate in atletics but we attend many such HS events each year and can attest to the large number of students that particpate in the event itself plus the even larger number that make up the band, color guard and support systems such as audio and visual services that are offered for each event. This past years percussion competition included what looked to be almost 100 students. So that's where I get my information Mr. Trimble and I maintain those that participate in these meaningful things represent much more than a 'relatively small number' of students.
Also Mr. Trimble as a a graduate of the DPS who benefited from sports and music I can attest to the "meaningful" need of these activities as anon 9:29am writes as I went to school with quite a few students that never would have finished school let alone done as well as they have done in life if it weren't for these very "meaningful" activities. Please Mr. Trimble take the time to do some research before you place these activities in a nice to have column as opposed to the need to have column that research clearly shows they should be in.
Highly recommended reading (A Whole New Mind" from the New York and Business Week Bestseller list):
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-New-Mind-Right-Brainers-Future/dp/1594481717/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218635635&sr=8-1
to 9:58 a.m.
Sports do NOT have to be cut from the schools. They should be funded by fundraisers, donations, school budget, and overrides.
Sports are an important part of the education of the whole child. I don't think Mr. Trimble wants to do away with sports all together. He feels, as I do, that textbooks and tech. should be funded first. After reading an article in The Chronicle today, teachers are doing a great job(we agree on that),parents say textbooks are outdated. The theme centered on textbooks.
Overcrowding is another issue noted by parents.Gidley should have remained open (in my opinion). At least parents are speaking out. SC, can you hear them now?
Bill's own words "My position is that athletics and music have a lower priority than textbooks and teachers. If funds are limited and they are, then classroom instruction and instructional materials should be funded before sports and music".Then ANON "they should be funded by"fundraisers, donations, school budget, and overrides." well Bill wants the school budget portion removed in favor of books and teachers (despite the fact there are no classrooms for them to teach in and every override to reopen a school fails)that leaves fundraisers, donations and overrides. As im sure everyone is aware NO school override has ever passed in Dartmouth so thats out. This leaves fundraising and donations. You can only pass the hat around collecting so many times and we seem to rely on that an awful lot around here lately. We expect everyone ELSE to help out for free to do the things we dont want to pay for
Peole already work their tails off fund raising and soliciting donations in Dartmouth. Hundreds of thousands of dollars and in kind services are gotten this way every year. As someone who has been on the volunteer end of 'fund raising' as well as writing my own fair share of checks I can tell you first hand there is a limit, both in terms of money donated and man hours able to be given in the pursuit of donations. Events do not run themselves and those events that do get put on year after year take lots of time and planning and effort on the part of many volunteers. They also take their toll on the those volunteering to pull them off.
Stating that fund raising and donations are a solution suggests that this is not already going on at a high rate which is simply untrue and yet another distraction to the real issue at hand.
I liken the 'no' folks to someone giving commands to a juggler. As the juggler does his thing with 3 balls in the air the 'no' folks toss more balls in the air every time the juggler asks a simple question;
'How many balls do you have hidden behind your back?'
I don't question whether or not sports and band are worthy activities. I think that they are. However, if we have to choose and we do, then we should fund those things which benefit all the students before we fund those that benefit some of the students. Even if those things which benefit some of the students are valuable activities. The state does not require us to have sports or band in our schools. They do require instruction in academic subjects. Parents spend thousands of dollars on fees and equipment for youth sports. If they want to have their children play a high school sport, I see nothing wrong with paying the cost. They have done so up until the child got to high school. Only those who use town water pay for the Water Enterprise. Those who benefit pay the cost. What's wrong with doing the same for sports, band, and other extracurricular activities.
The school administration decided to close two schools. If you think that was a bad decision, they should be held accountable. Not me, not the taxpayers.
Unfortunately it seems that the school supporters feel that ANY criticism of the school administration weakens their case for more funding. I disagree with that and I think a majority of the taxpayers do too. Hence the failure of school overrides.
Bill--
Are you saying that the school administration had sufficient funds to keep Gidley and Cushman open, but decided to close the schools for some other reason, or to promote some underhanded agenda? Why were these schools closed,if not because of insufficient funds?
What's wrong with burdening parents with fees for extracurricular activities that have been, until recently, paid for out of the school dept budget? It's unfair to students whose parents can't afford the extra fees, that's what's wrong! The parents can't pay, and the kids go without. Instructional materials are important, and so are music, sports, drama club, debating, etc. Come on people, let's be a community and share the cost for what was offered to all of us without fees when we were in school. Or is the prevalent attitude, "I've got mine; you're out of luck?"
You hit the nail n the head Anon4:03. That IS the prevelant attitude. Mr. Trimble even says as much in his last post. The town should only provide what is mandated by the state and at the minimum levels allowed by law. Everything else is on the parents regardless of past history and regardless of my 12 years of paying for other kid's stuff beyond the 'minimum' long before my children attended schools. Everyone out for him/herself seems to be what Mr Trimble is espousing. He is very deft at not acknowledging other opposing points of view, dismissing cuts already made, plans put forth, and basic fairness to the students now in the system. He is also deft at sidestepping the issue when others callhis bluff - such as the number of students participating in sports, art and music.
The 'state' as a paragon of what's right for education? Since when? Because the state sets the absolute minimum that must be spent by each community that's our goalpost? (pun intended) That's our mile marker? Please.
Try and think a little more globally Mr. Trimble. We do not live in a box whose walls are defined by the state boundary.
As far as your additional assertion that parents think any criticism of the school department weakens the casue for additional funding - more nonsense. Many parents have been and continue to be critical of the school administration and the decisions they have made in the face of constant funding challenges. There has been plenty of critical analysis as well as frustration with what has taken place. What's even more frustrating is having to fight this battle on behalf of our kids on 2 fronts; the school administration and their issues and people like Mr Trimble and his loyal cadre who continue to spread half truths and outright misrepresentations without any basis in fact.
Once again Mr Trimble you dissappoint, seems you are a quick study at being a typical 'politician'. We've already got too many of those at 400 Slocum Road. I had hoped you would be different. Oh well, I've been wrong before.
Don't blame Mr. Trimble just because he has an opinion that is different than yours. Read the papers and you will see that other towns also have fees for sports now. He should not be blamed for the failure of the schools to fund textbooks before sports and other activities. The parents have spoken, the kids need textbooks! The SC should advocate for textbooks, textbooks, textbooks before the extras.
“if we have to choose and we do” Mr. Trimble has now decided that we have to choose textbooks over music, art and sports before he will support the schools. This Mr. Trimble is where we as parents take issue with you and others like you as you are trying to make decisions as to how best to educate our children.
Do you tell other departments in the town how best to administer their programs like say the Transportation Program at the Council on Aging? And as residents that don’t use those services should we not have to pay for that portion of the town budget? Absolutely not, as I would no more so say that we should not support our seniors that need transportation as determined by our COA Director then what the Superintendent of Schools says our children need to be successful learners.
What about the taxpayers who cannot afford your override requests?
Yes, I am saying the school administration had the money to keep one or even both schools open. They made a choice to close them.
We do have to make choices. I would choose books. You would choose not to choose.
The schools will get their appropriation and can spend it as they like. I want spending to focus on all our learners, not just our athletes and musicians. Regardless of your assertions, those two groups are a small fraction of the total school population.
I have opinions about how other town departments should spend their money and you can find them throughout this blog.
It's interesting Mr. Trimble how you carefully leave "Art" out of your posts, and only include "music and sports." Why is that? What is your position about "art", "drama", etc. as that also makes up a portion of the school budget. Should textbooks be funded before it as well?
Please tell us, Mr. Trimble, why the school department closed the two schools if they had money to keep the schools open. Why are activities fees being charged in light of the savings from the school closings?
I would fund academic subjects before all others including art and drama.
there it is--classic move, when on the run throw out the " what about the taxpayers who cant afford it?" page 4 of the CFRG playbook.
Mr Trimble - you are wrong. Can you simply admit it and still make your point? Sports, music, arts, drama are NOT a small percentage neither are they a relativly small number as you state without benefit of proof. Many people do not agree with you that these things should fall by the wayside because 'the taxpayers cannot afford it'.
It's just a damn shame that you simply will neither look up facts before you make your broad generalizations nor admit that you may be mistaken when confronted with facts that do not support your assertions.Repeating your same misstatements in a different way do not make them true.
There also is noting in the 'no' people's including Mr Trimble's history that would make me think they would support text funding if every other programin the system were in fact eliminated. Look back over the last few years, the first o'ride failed 'too much money' was the cry, the 2nd o'ride for a lot less failed 'no way you're gonna open those two closed schools, the kids will adjust, we dont need languages in 7th grade, go ahead cut the library hours in half, make do. Come back with a smaller o'ride for text/tech only. Well, now that question is raised and we get 'get your priorities straight (actually agree with our priorities is more like it) and then we'll talk'.
It's all a game, plain and simple. There is no argument made that a tax increas of some $40/year will break this town. Hell it would'nt even bring the taxes back to where they were 2 years ago. his whole thread, the entire blog in fact,is more of the same game and only reinforces my opinion that Mr Trimble and his cohorts only want to keep money in their own pockets and screw those that have no say, namely 6-18 year old students.
If you google "dartmouth school closing" and read the articles you will read about the choice of either laying off 80 people or closing the two schools. Layoff 80 people when our teacher/student ratio is too high to begin with.Sure doesnt sound like they had the money to me.
I don't know if this has or can be done, but, has anyone come up with the amount of money it would cost to retain each of the extracurricular activities (all sports offered at the schools; art; music; etc.) and then compared them both individually and totaled with the cost of purchasing updated textbooks and technology for all the grades, individually and then as a total? Maybe we all would have a better idea of just how much money we are talking about when it comes to all these extras everyone seems bent on funding through the taxpayers AT A TIME WHEN WE ALL ARE FACED WITH OUR OWN FINANCIAL CRISIS CALLED LIVING. Maybe the amounts for these extras could individually be considered for funding if and when (if either of those is possible from the way some want it ALL) these extras themselves are prioritized. Obviously this would be quite an undertaking involving, no doubt, more arguments even among the parents themselves, but wouldn't it be somewhat of a compromise if everyone were willing to give it a try and put aside his or her own personal agendas? Quite possibly it may not have to be an all-or-nothing situation? Let's see what money there is left over, if any, and then continue the argument. It seems everyone is intent on beating each other up on what is more important (again, for some it's EVERYTHING and an HONEST prioritization will likely never happen.) P.S. Are you MORE LIKELY to get a decent job if you have the education or the football (name your sport or even any other extra activity) prowess/skill?
There are over 4,000 students in Dartmouth schools. If every high school student, about 1,200, participated in sports and band, that would represent 30% of the students in Dartmouth schools. Not taking into account that not all high school students participate, 7 out of 10 are not affected by cuts to sports and band. Do you have any numbers to dispute that? But I think that is really not the point.
What we must address is that we have limited resources and therefore must prioritize our spending. Refusing to acknowledge that does not move us to better results or contribute to a solution.
What I have said is that a plan is needed to address how we will allocate our available resources to meet our expenses. We can do that today for both town and school spending but we have not taken that step. If we don't do that, the town and school departments will be wringing their hands and predicting dire consequence early next year as the FY10 budget is formulated. Let's start now and begin to hash out the allocations. Otherwise the result is hasty and sometime ill advised reactions to budget shortfalls year after year. I don't want to continue that pattern. Do you? Let's put out a plan that shows explicitly how each town department will be funded and what will have to be have to be cut if the revenue does not keep pace with the growth of expenses. I think it is important to note that the town and school budgets grow every year. The school spending this year is 4% higher that the year before. The trouble is that the expenses are growing faster than the revenue. That must be addressed.
As noted by Mr. Trimble, "The trouble is that the expenses are growing faster than the revenue."
The cause for this situation is not entirely the fault of government inefficiencies, it is largely due to Prop 2 1/2. Prop 2 1/2 is the elephant in the room that the "no" folks refuse to acknowledge. No matter how much we cut spending, the elephant is going to keep catching up with us unless we increase revenue.
The other side is equally valid. Reduce the rate of growth of expense.
The other side is valid to a point: cutting spending and reducing rate of growth is absolutely necessary. However, beyond some point we will be cutting to the quick, and that will be painful.
Prop 2 1/2 has been in effect since 1980 and has been effectively reducing the rate of growth of expenses that can be controlled, which is why we have seen such cuts in service since its enactment, but that’s 28 years of cutting/limiting so to speak. Eventually limiting growth to 2 ½ % will be out paced and I believe as do many that unfortunately that time has come. I know tough for many die hard Prop 2 ½ fans to admit but it is the current unexpected doubling and tripling in the cost of things that are uncontrollable like utilities, insurance, etc. that have now out paced 2 1/2 that have now caused us to have to cut into the core services (infrastructure, close buildings, choose textbooks over music etc.) causing us to make these painful choices that Mr. Trimble believes we should make. This is the pain that comes wit h the slow death of Prop 2 1/2. Just wish we as a community that cared about one another young and old could put aside our differences to avoid this pain.
Mr. Trimble why do you insist on only counting High School sports, music etc.??
Education begins in kindergarten and includes music and the arts, physical education has already been slashed in these elementary and middle school grades as well. All these count towards what you all seem to call 'extras'. You will not even concede that some of us do not believe these are 'extras' but integral to the education of a student in the global picture. References to educational materials that point to the value of these programs is ignored, its ridiculous.
I most certainly do acknowledge limited resources, I live with it every day. Many costs have already been transferred to me as a parent of HS aged children that you did not have to bear and you tell me straight faced I need to bear more fees and more cuts need to be made so the rest of the town can save $40 a year because they 'can't afford it'. You don't even acknowledge that you and the rest of the 'no' people constantly change the argument after each cut and concession is made. I've said it before but will say it one more time, knowing you will not hear it but here goes anyway; your arguments lack intellectual honesty and you continue to ignore other opposing statements and simply re-iterate the party line.
Hey this has been fun, but an incredible waste of time so I'm throwing in the towel. Best of luck Mr. Trimble.
Reduce the rate of Expense?. Im sure E$$on and Mo'bill will jump right on that. explain how to reduce a 50% increase in fuel oil THIS winter never mind past years.
Yes 'reduce the rate of expense', political speak for 'cut more we're not spending a penny more on education as there is no benefit to me'.
There seems to be a common thread that since things were done in a certain way in the past that they should continue in the future. I am referring to school activities such as sports, music, art etc. The school system has provided them before so people assume it should continue to do so. Nonsense! At one time our government was providing a mule and 40 acres and holding land races. Should it have continued to do so? Times change.
I would also like to point out that they are your children. If you want something for them it is your responsibility to get it. A quality education should be the responsibility of the community. Your SC and Administration have failed to provide that, not the taxpayers. As far as what constitutes a quality education? As stated in another post, it does not include the extras. If you want those things for your children it is up to you to make it happen.
As you can readily see from my postings and comments, I have an opinion and don't hesitate to express it. Sometimes I do get tired of those who think they know what I mean, even if it's not the same as what I've said.
anon 8:07 Your explanations for past overrides failing are somewhat wrong. It wasn't just that it was too much money. It was too much money and no plan to stop the bleeding. A temporary band-aid. The second one for textbooks and technology would have stood a chance if salaries were not added into it. You claim there have been compromises. What are they? What have the schools done to reconcile the budget?
A compromise would be to limit the number of so called extras. I find it hard to believe that every activity has a large majority of student participation.
Going back three to four generations not many had the opportunities that are available to students today. Are they all somehow stunted? Did the system fail them miserably because their school did not offer art, drama, soccer etc.? Past generations have been hard working, productive people who have been responsible for much of the wealth enjoyed by the last couple of generations. Given a choice I would always choose academics above all else. The problem seems to be that you have not come to the realization that a choice will have to be made. You will not get both. So do we continue to waste time debating it or do the children of Dartmouth get learning materials?
Closing two schools was not the choice of the voters. Dr. Russell made that decision. Was it based on real data and research? The numbers changed dramatically so I'm assuming it wasn't. Then what was the real reasoning behind this decision? What has been the reasoning behind most of the decisions made by Dartmouth leaders? How about the streetlights? Did anyone see the ST article about Freetown turning off their lights? It would seem Freetown has actually done a little cost/benefit research on the subject before making a decision. Was that done in Dartmouth? The answers we've received from Mr. Gagne prior to and following the shut off leads one to believe that it was never properly analyzed. Dartmouth has to stop reacting in crisis mode and start managing. Decisions need to be made with research, data & clear heads. Not with overrides and threats of what will happen if they don't pass.
Oh I get it now. Fifty years ago there was no sports, music or drama or art (besides being incorrect - look at some old yearbooks) the world has changed believe it or not. America is not the only powerhouse on the planet - there actually is world wide competition and the schools must adapt to that changing world. I know grandma and grandpa walked uphill both ways in the snow and did'nt complain about it but those days are long over. Look beyond the borders of Dartmouth and find out what colleges are looking for these days for admittance. The days of Johnny graduating high school and signing up at the mills are long gone too so college is the choice for many.
As far as your assertion that the 2nd override failed because salaries were included and not just texts, yeah salaries were included for positions that had been cut in previous years. So as a result of the failure there is still no curriculum coordinator, no IT director, 1/2 time library hours at the middle school, NO librarians in the elementary schools at all and more. So yes keep saying that parents are unwilling to make choices or 'make compromises'. Utter nonsense and more of the same pattern of convenient amnesia on the part of the 'no' people.
to anon 7:08 - waste time debating what? That some will not capitulate to your idea of what constitues an education. Say what you want I have absolutely zero faith that if every concession continues to be made to save you less than a penny a day to buy text books you will still not approve them. So while I hate to waste your valuable time there is a choice for you to make too. Face the fact that parents will not be going quietly into that dark night so you can stash that penny under your mattress just like great grandma did.
Are colleges requiring football scores now??? I will continue to say parents are unwilling to compromise until you have given me proof otherwise. You state it but you give no examples. If compromising to you means continuing to defend a school administration & SC that has denied your children basic learning materials while blasting the voters for failing the children, then we will never have compromise. You can also remain as vocal as you'd like but that will not change the way the voters see it.
Anon 9:40 - you, like Mr. Trimble over simplify the reality of the situation. By reducing the discussion to 'colleges requiring football scores' tells me you are not serious about looking at the problem. Defending the SC is not the issues, and nowhere in my posts have I done that so that argument holds no water. The long lists of 'compromises' already made has been described ad infinitum so why write them down agin when you will simply choose to ignore them, again? Sounds like a fool's errand and I'll pass.
A far as Mr. Trimble getting tired of people assuming they know what he means, one has only to read his entries on this thread to see the shifting sands on which he makes his arguments. They are his own words and need no interpretation from me.
To anon 9:40
Colleges have basic standards for students to apply to their school. The two main standards are grade point average and their SAT scores. If the student matches the college’s standards in these two areas, they are welcome to fill out an application. Colleges then look for memberships in organizations, community service, sports participation, job history, etc. Colleges do not want students who will have their nose in a book 100% of the time. In order for the college to be successful they need students that will be active in clubs and events. They want students who will be involved in the campus community. Colleges actively look for these students and accept them into their school.
You can find the statement above in almost all college prep materials or just simply google "what colleges want in a student".
But as anon 4:29am pointed out you thought you could make yet another poor excuse for why you and Mr. Trimble's DON'T support education in Dartmouth. Thanks we get it loud and clear!
From one of many similar entries to a google search as suggested by Anon 7:53
"Of course, colleges and universities are looking for students who demonstrate strong academic performance and a zeal for learning. This does not mean that you need to earn straight A's to get into a good college. It simply means that you must demonstrate a commitment to learning and put forth your best effort in every class. The recommendations that your teachers will write as part of your application play a crucial part in the admissions process.
Find Local College and Universities Resources:
City or Zip:
Because the admissions staff cannot know what you're like in the classroom, they rely on these teacher's accounts to paint a better picture of you as a student. Thus, it's important to be a lively presence in class. Simply doing the work is not enough. Colleges and universities are looking for students who truly stand out in the classroom, and who challenge themselves to be the very best they can be.
In addition, it's important to explore the world you live in. Keep in mind that most good colleges and universities are looking to find the students who will be tomorrow's leaders. That means that they're looking for applicants who demonstrate a true interest in their environment and a passion to make the world a better place.
Whether it's community service, involvement in an athletic organization or a staff position on a school literary journal, you should seek out activities that both interest you and challenge you. More than just participating, however, you need to be able to understand and articulate how these activities have influenced you and be able to discuss the ways in which they've inspired personal growth."
Of course the fall back for the 'no' folks will likely be some inane comment about their grandparents not needing college educations....
No, my argument is that schools are not the only organization offering activities. There are other areas where one can participate in community projects, athletics, music etc. There are little league baseball teams, music lessons, several organizations which offer art classes. What better entry on a college application could there be than volunteering at a senior center or helping the homeless? Or better yet assuming a leadership role and organizing a volunteer group to help in a much needed community project? There are many more ways to boost a college application than just participating in a school activity.
believe it or not anon 5:43-students already volunteer and assist the community and the seniors. A group of DeMello students this spring spent an afternoon sweeping leaves up at the senior center among many other such outings. As far as music lessons sure you got the money for lessons play away! No money? oh well, you're out of luck I guess. More of the 'haves' vs. 'have nots'
Students found New Orleans mission a rewarding one.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080610/NEWS/806100342
Yes this wonderful reaching out to another community in need project was initiated by Dartmouth High School Teachers Laurie Dias-Mitchell, the director of the media arts center, and Jackie Francisco, a uniform arts teacher
Anonymous, 5:01, there will always be the "haves" vs. the "have nots," as you put it. There will always be some people who can afford any fees for whatever the activity, some who will never be able to afford them, and some who will only be able to afford them by scrimping and sacrificing on other expenses. I suspect most of Dartmouth's residents fall into the latter category. For that matter, probably most of society does, too. At any rate, such a statement just serves to further fuel the fires and set people against each other, at least in my opinion. Whether you believe it or not, no one in Dartmouth wants to see the children without their needed learning materials. That, first and foremost, should be books and technology.
As Anonymous, 5:35, pointed out, there are a variety of other ways to participate in "extra curricular" activities outside of school. There have been many articles about elementary school kids in this area that have raised money (and thus, awareness) for those in need, whether for some one person or group in this area or a global need, all on their own initiative. How great will that look on a college application?! Talk about leadership!
What about Select Board member Bob Carney's initiative to clean the Pasky? Here's a great way for kids to give to their community, as well as learn more about preserving what nature has given us. The DeMello students are a perfect example of giving back, as are those students who headed to New Orleans. Both groups deserve a lot of credit for their time and selflessness. Their parents taught them well, and they and their teachers should be (and I imagine, are) proud of them. These are the types of activities we in the community should support, more so, in my opinion, than bickering and dividing ourselves into two camps over the "haves" and "have nots" and what constitutes an "education." And I know there have been others in Dartmouth who have given of themselves, as well. These are the children who hold our future in their hands as we get older. I am far more impressed with these children than with someone who is outstanding on the football field, and, depending on attitude, of course, is hell-bent on winning, above all else. And we have all seen or read about that happening, and even more unfortunate, seeing it happen among parents. Now that's a good example for your child or someone else's child to witness!
You are probably not going to like this opinion, given that it sounds like you give no credence to "our grandparents' generation/education," but, there are parents who will go the distance to give their children what they see as essential to their child's emotional and mental well-being. I refer to "our grandparents" who sacrificed to give us the music lessons, for example, or the single mother who put aside money for months to give her child the opportunity to go to camp and ride horses, or learn to play tennis, or participate in activities or sports to strengthen and broaden the child's learning/life experiences and encourage and foster new ones.
And there are many parents today who enroll their children in so many sports and activities that they need their technological gadgets to keep their kids' schedules straight, let alone their own.
I almost want to bet that many of the parents who want it ALL, paid by the taxpayer, of course, fall into that category.
Yes, we had sports "way back when" when I was in school. And, yes, I did go through my DHS yearbook. We had sports: football; boys' basketball; cross country; indoor track; baseball; field hockey; and girls' basketball. Given the number of sports there are, I would say this is a pretty good compilation of "All American" sports that should be, I would think, well rounded enough to qualify for college acceptance for those colleges heavily invested in sports as qualifications for acceptance. Obviously there are sports indigenous to the region which should be of lesser importance on a scale of 1-10. If a child is looking to get into one of these colleges, perhaps the parents should be looking into private financing of these sports.
Yes, the world has changed and will continue to do so, for good or bad. Progress, good or bad. But one thing has not changed: there is still a basic need for education and a desperate need for individuals who are compassionate, selfless, and giving of themselves for benefit of others. That is what we, as parents, as adults, as teachers, and as school administrators and officials, should be encouraging and fostering in the children who come under our care and sphere of influence, not the "Me," not the "I want it ALL," not the "I want it NOW."
Well said. Anyone see the ST article today regarding the state income tax? Can't wait to see if voters in MA will stand up and vote to rid ourselves of that black hole. Of course the biggest opponent to the ballot question is the teachers' union. Who would have thought.
Anon 4:26, go to http://votenoquestion1.com/no.html
to see the dozens of other organizations who are opposed to this question. What do you think will happen to your local taxes if the State is not kicking in support?
Local taxes are still capped by prop 2 1/2. If the voters choose to rid themselves of the state income tax, do you really think they will vote to get rid of prop 2 1/2?
Anon 11:22 - you make so many generalizations and over-statements in your piece I hardly know where to begin. It's so easy to come back and say cut back sports, or I don't think achievement on the football field is the same as community service etc., and then lump parnets into a 'want it all' category with techno gadgets to keep track of their kids schedules. Neat and tidy and so dismissive of the majority of parents that work hard to see that their children have the same opportunities they had and their grand parents had. To expect to not have over crowded schools, sufficient materials to learn from, music arts and yes even athletics - my how greedy we are. as it stands now we have an over crowded middle school with many short comings, an over crowded elementary school, insufficient materials, staff shortages in critical areas like curriculum planning and technology support, fees for everyting from busses to sports and you say that we parents 'want it all'. Not once throughout this entire thread (and others like it) has one 'no' person acknowledged that there have been sacrifices made or losses taken. Any mention of closed schools, fees charged, positions eliminated are completely ignored and are met with statements like yours 'want it all', 'don't want compromise' etc.,, for once it would be refreshing to hear one of you simply acknowledge what has been lost and the effect it is having on the quality f education in Dartmouth. I'm not holding my breath however.
Its all very discouraging to say the very least.
As far as saying students should assist more throughout the community and don't need the schools for such activities all I can say is schools throughout my own memory have always looked to help the communities they are located in. Its part of being a community and teaches students the value of shared experiences and sacrifice. What's wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with it, we just can't afford it anymore. It's very difficult to let go of the past but the days of unlimited spending are over. Priorities are now a must so it is time to choose what those priorities will be. I understand a parent's desire to have the most for his/her children but we face a different reality. It's time to get over past wants & wishes and deal with what is available.
See that, you did it again. Fascinating.
Anonymous, 8:13, sounds to me like all some of you bloggers want to do is bait other bloggers. Who knows whether or not you really believe what you are blogging. Just say the opposite of what someone else is saying,and see where it flies. Otherwise you'd lay off the "see, that's what I mean" comments and work to find some solutions and compromises.
Most bloggers are stating their opinions, how they interpret the situation, and how they are feeling, and they may be adament about it. That's what Bill's blog is all about. But most also are not bashing and baiting other bloggers at the same time. You are not alone, though, by any means.
Grow up and contribute to the solution, all of you. Don't keep adding to the problem.
You want specifics? Sports, art, drama, music, trips to various events and places all have to go. Schools everywhere now have to concentrate on academic learning. Nothing else because that is all we can afford. If you want to blame anyone look to the teachers' union. Education has become a business where one has to have a masters degree to teach 2nd grade math. Who benefits? Administrators and teachers who can increase their pay with more degrees. Universities who increase their revenue. Wasn't it interesting that UMass became so involved with the school override questions? It is very easy to blame the voters for being cheap. It's like a child who overspends and then blames mom and dad for not giving him/her more allowance.
Nonsense 8:30 anon. I have listed numerous specifics on sacrifices that have been made. I have also offered my commments that you 'no' people simply ignore what has been lost and the impact it has on education and move on the the net thing you want removed without acknowledging what has gone before. The last post is simply another illustration of that practice. A wholesale statement that 'schools everywhere' are giving up on sports, art, drama music etc. is wrong plain and simple. Yes there are communities that have droped these things but there are many more that value these things and are fighting to maintain them.
Disagreeing with you and stating why is baiting? I know this is Bill's blog but does that mean those that disagree with the concept of stripping the schools bare must sit down and silently nod in agreement? That would make for a thrilling blog for sure.
Sorry I dont buy your argument and will not slink away.
The argument obout teachers with master's degree's teaching 2nd grade math is yet another example of the lunacy that gets tossed out there as fact. Even if they have a masters and teach math salaraies are simply not outrageous - even below the state average - but you I'm sure feel the staate pays all the teachers too much. How far does $60k go these days? And I actually have no problem if a teacher wants to better him/herself through continued education. I do it myself in my own line of work, and guess what when I learn more people value that and pay me more. What a concept!
to anon 8:42 - what are you talking about when you say UMASS Dartmouth got so involved with the override questions? You are absolutely wrong (no real surprise)again. That several parents and grandparents happen to work at UMASS D and voiced opinions during the process means that UMASS was deeply involved?! If you were paying attention to the issue you would know oone of those vocal UMASS D parents actually did not support the last override question as presented. But again, why let facts get in the way when innuendo will do nicely.
I never said schools everywhere were giving up sports etc. I said schools everywhere now have to concentrate on academic learning. Please try to read more carefully. How far does 60K go? Just ask someone who is making 30K. These are some of the very same people you call cheap for not wanting to pay more taxes. The simple argument from your so called "no" people has always been to reconcile spending with revenues. We have to do that everyday in our personal lives. The private sector has to as well. What makes our government whether federal, state, or local above all that?
um no anon 3:04, you said 'sports, arts, drama... all have to go" followed by "Schools everywhere have to concentrate on academic learning" again followed by "Nothing else because that is all we can afford" A reasonable person can make the leap that you implied that schools everywhere where doing away with all these things when nothing could be further from the truth.
As far as teachers earnings vs. your $30k/year scenario; all I can say is teachers earn every penny they make and they made a choice to pursue a career that pays sugnificantly more than $30k/year as did I. A quality education allows more people to escape from a life of lower paid jobs, and like it or not I would hope that my children-and all the others-will be prepared to enter careers that afford them better opportunities than a $30k/year job. It may sound un-caring but that's how I feel.
And I, like you, have to reconcile my revenue with my bills. Its the same for everyone. But you know what, when my bills start to grow through no fault of my own (think gas, heat, electricity) I can only cut back so far and then I face a choice, continue re-trenching and going backwards or look for better opportunities so I can move forward. Better opportunities in this example meant working harder, longer and smarter so I could raise additional revenue. You know waht it worked.
So I am saying you reach a point in the schools when more cuts do not produce the desired results and one part of the answer is additional revenue. From what I have read here - and in other places - a text book cost of some $600k would mean an increase of taxes of less than $40/average house/year or about a penny a day. Nothing written here has convnced me that this community cannot afford this and the only answer is stil more cuts. Sorry but that's how I see it.
You have a problem comprehending what you read. I never said schools were doing away with. What I implied was that they will have to.
UMass wasn't highly involved? Do the names Doug Rosco and Shannon Jenkins ring a bell? If I remember correctly they headed the Coalition. I also recall a huge effort to recruit UMass students to register and vote for the override.
I agree with working longer, harder etc. as you stated. If teachers and administrators want to keep their pay or advance then would you agree that they should as well? Then why aren't they? You no longer have teachers walking students to the buses. Heaven forbid. We have to pay someone else to do that. Teachers used to monitor the playground, lunches etc. When I was in school one of my teachers was also the principle. Everyone else has to work harder and do more with less help so what makes them any different? Please don't tell me how hard they already work. So does everyone else without getting two months off in the summer, holidays & vacations.
Well, with your latest explanation of what you meant I must admit I am really lost. You only want schools to give things up going forward, is that it?
hmm - as I stated 2 parents that happen to work at UMass D does not equate to UMassD being deeply involved in anything. As far as your claim of a huge effort to recruit UMassD students - does a table for one day in the student common manned by 3 volunteer parents (non UMassD parents by the way) constitute a huge effort? I think not.
My experience with teachers has been that they do indeed work very hard. My direct expereince has also shown me that teachers and asmin staff at Quinn (where 2 of my kids go) do in fact make sure bussing goes as smoothly as possible. In fact on most days you wil see teachers and admin outside no matter the weather. As far as monitors go, given the number of students and busses at Quinn you're darn right I want as many people overseeing what could be chaos.
I do so love the old stand by argument that gets tossed out as if it's some trump card - 'well they get the summers off' Big deal, they average $6k a month which means $72k a year if they worked the summer months. Let's see how many master degree holding profeesionals work for $72k a year. No apologies from me for offering decent wages to professionals that demonstrate that they do a job well.
There are many fields of employment where a Master's degree does not get you $72,000. Social work for one. Many different kinds of scientific work from geology and biology to astronomy and meteorolgy have advanced degree workers making much less than $72,000. For that matter, college professors that I know who teach in the liberal arts have Doctorates and make much, much less than $72,000. It is not the degree that you hold that sets your rate of pay, it is the value of the work that you do which sets the compensation. The value as determined by the market in private industry, which is not so in public schools.
While I value what social workers bring to our society, and the work they do for those that require their services I put a much higher value on what a good teacher brings to the classroom. Notice I said a good teacher, I do recognize that, like every profession, that not every teacher fits that bill. The example you used of a social worker is a good one-since I have some knowledge of that field of work. Social workers in practice for the government (state, local, fed)do not make a large amount of money, however those that choose to go into private practice in fact often earn well in excess of the the $72k/year being discussed. I know this because I have 2 private practice social workers in my family. With advanced degrees they each earn well into the low six figures.
Like I said earlier, i do not begrudge a well qualified teacher a good wage provided they bring to the classroom the same dedication and enthusiasm that I bring to my own line of work. Just like a plumber,or electrician or carpenter whose services I may need are valued I value what a teacher does to advance my child's knowledge and love of learning. So, nope, $60k/year is not too high a price to pay for that.
One last thought on the $30k/year as a benchmark income. I wonder just how many families we are talking about that have an income of this level? The state has done studies that discuss what constitutes self-sufficiency in terms of income levels compared to federal poverty benchmarks. The feds say an income of $21,600 or less is poverty level for a family of four (2008 data) while the state's study indicates a more real-world number of just over $36,000 for the same family of four (2003 data). This information, plus my own observations driving around Dartmouth, make me doubt the claim that we have a large number of families living at our below the poverty level. It certainly reinforces my belief that teachers should earn enough money to raise a family beyond mere self sufficiency levels.
I make what a teacher makes but with zero benefits and I am doing pretty well. Considering job security, benefits, the short work year, and the situation with the economy, teachers have NOTHING to complain about unless they are greedy.
If I'm not mistaken teachers are not complaining and by and large seem content with their positions from what I can tell. The discussion about teacher pay was initiated by a blogger who feels they earn too much and I was stating why I felt that was not the case. I am not a teacher and have none in my family so have no personal, vested, interest in their salary other than to comment on whether I think it is too high or too low. I have not read or heard anything about teachers being dissatisfied so I don't think that is the case.
I haven't heard that teachers are complaining, either, and wonder where that thought comes from. But where would I rather put my taxpayer money? I would rather see it spent on decent salaries with fair financial provisions and benefits for the teachers. They, after all, are the ones who directly affect the kids, (after, of course, administration gives them a sufficient amount of money, or not, for learning materials, to do so.)
I think "fair" is the correct word to use, across the Board, with both Town and school contracts. Administration thus far has had it quite good with its contracts and benefits. (Witness clause b. in eight non-union Town employee contracts, for example. The Select Board will, according to its pledge before the election in 2007, strike that clause from the contracts when they expire, most, if not all, in 2009, I believe.)
I personally think if salaries had been more contractually equitable over the years, perhaps more money would have reached the children for what they need, textbooks and technology, priority #1. Why can't new hires on both Town and school sides start at lower salaries, for instance? Is it essential to give new hires the same or nearly the same salary as the individual leaving the position? That never happened in any position I held. What employer wouldn't be happy to have the opportunity to save money?! Of course, education does count, but so do years on the job in that particular position, for that is where the experience comes in.
What's done is done with past contracts. But going forward, I would hope both the Town and school would try to curb their enthusiasm for giving out taxpayer money and see that their spending is fairly allocated for everyone. I have to wonder if that is or will be the case, though, so that taxpayers will not be expected to, or called upon, on a constant basis with override requests to shoulder the extra costs within the budget. And I imagine it will be or could be quite a contentious negotiation to be more cost/spend conscious when the unions are involved.
Well I actually agree with all that anon 9:43!
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