Ed iacaponi emailed me this information,
Please be advised that the Quinn Elementary School window replacement project has been approved by SBA at their board meeting on Mar 25, 2009. They have placed it in the repair and renovation category. They will be issuing an approval letter shortly. We will be able to proceed with this project once assigned a project number.
Ed
Edward Iacaponi
Director of Budget & Finance / Treasurer
Town of Dartmouth
The Town Meeting had appropriated funds ...
...contingent upon the match by the SBA.
This project will now proceed.
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Quinn window project wins state approval
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48 comments:
Womderful news!
It's taken a while, but that's good news.
Yes, it has! And thank you to all that persevered.
It's nice to get some progress on the energy efficiency front. I hope the lowest bidder will be a local group so we can increase the local economy with this project.
It would be interesting to learn just how much money our town lost long-term by putting this off for so many years.
How many other projects tabled are doing the same thing, for all of those "cost-conscious" folks?
Well we can start with the 18 now 19 year wait for ADA compliance.
The energy savings between new windows and the old is minimal. The cost savings from new windows does not justify this project. The payback is 20 years or more. I am sure that comments will accuse me of being against kids but energy savings is not a valid reason to replace windows. Call a residential window contractor and ask them if energy savings will justify new windows in your home even if you have old wooden single pane casement windows. It will not.
There may be other reasons to replace the windows such as their condition that would make sense. Replacing the old boiler at Quinn would save much more energy than the windows but you can't see a boiler.
For the past decade or so, the town has diverted more and more money from capital projects to fund an unsustainable operating budget. The current Select Board and Finance Committee have started to reverse that trend but in the interim, a large backlog of capital spending has accumulated. It will take some time to pare down that list given our fiscal restraints. One possible solution is to ask the voters to approve a debt exclusion which is a tax increase that goes away after the debt is retired. A debt exclusion measure failed last year as part of the override questions presented.
Bill, I am glad you mentioned debt exclusion. I have been saying since "07 that I would support one and I hoped that the last one would pass. People need to understand the capital improvement situation and how it has been neglected in order to support operational costs.
My kids will be around in 20 years so they will appreciate the energy efficiency. Oil prices are going to rise within that time so the payback may be sooner. There's some adage that seems appropriate here which I will misquote as follows: Move forward or get out of the way.
Bill, Have you studied the energy savings analysis for this project put together by engineer and FinCom chair, Peter Friedman? Do you factor in the 50%+ grant that the town will recieve since they were put on the 'Approved' list for this project? The payback is in fact is not 20+ years as you state. Look at the analysis.
Call a residential window contrator? How about looking at emperical analysis instead of listening to a window salesman? When you factor in the actual condition of these windows, the fact that many of them leak not only air into the building but water as well and that many of them simply no longer function this project is an absolute no brainer Mr. Trimble. How about asking the kids that sit in these rooms what they think of them and how it affects theie learning enviroonment? I know it's just the Quinn School and they should be happy they get anything at all but learning environment does affect educational objectives.
I am sorry, I try and look at all sides of an issue but now, after this project has been studied and analyzed and postponed to death. Only after caveats are placed on its going forward - more than 50% stste reimbursement before it goes ahead was the caveat all agreed to and this has been assured - do you now state this notion that it is not a worthwhile project. Why is that Mr. Trimble? Boiler replacement is on the CIP list forwarded and to be discussed by the schools and CIP so that worthwhile energy saving project is in line. To suggest windows are getting replaced simply because you can see them is absurd. Having kids sit a classroom that pours cold air on the unlucky kid that happened to get a seat near the window is wrong. Saying replacing 50 year old single pane windows after they have long outlived their useful life because a window salesman says it does not make sense while simultaneously disregarding scientific anaylsis that says otherwise is also wrong. Turning what is a good news story for the school system into a controversial one is also wrong and I frankly do not understand it.
Greg Jones
Thank you, Greg, for taking the time to comment here. I find Mr. Trimble's spin to be counterproductive and only fuels the divisiveness many are rightfully critizing and holding certain people accountable for. You have my vote, as does Watson and Stone.
Bill's nonsensical comments never seem to stop amazing me. Thank you Greg for speaking the truth, advocating for what is really needed in our schools, and taking a logical stance.
one only has to look to his mentor for his inspiration.
Bill
Your on the right track, so keep up the leadership. Let's hope that Gilbert is re-elected. Our town can't afford a setback.
I agree with you on supporting Diane Gilbert but disagree with you on Carney. Carney is a god man. He was never supported by the town movers until this election. Trust me, when I say to you and all those who are interested, Carney can't be bought. Honesty is his policy.
Correction; Carney is a good man, not a God man. Sorry for the type "o"
What I said was that energy savings do not make a good case for replacing these windows. I have looked at the analysis from Dr. Friedman and my opinion remains the same. The other reasons that Mr. Jones lists are in additional to the energy savings and and may be sufficient to justify the expense. Once again, even with the state match, the energy savings do not justify the replacement. I am in the business of running facilities and I know of what I speak. No company would go forward with this project based on energy savings.
The energy savings from upgrading the boiler at Quinn would be orders of magnitude greater than window replacement. That project was not chosen, the windows were. Why? I think because you can see the windows and not the boiler.
I am not opposed to spending the money on the windows at Quinn. I just want to be clear that energy savings is not the argument to put forward.
We have limited resources and must spend them where we get the most benefit. The solar array on the high school is an example of a project where the savings does not justify the expense. The same is true of the windmills at the DPW. There are better, easier options that cost less and save more. They should come first.
Bill - you put up the straw man argument of energy savings as the motivation for this project and then proceeded to knock it down. There have been many reasons put forward that these windows should be replaced I have listed several, energy savings is but one of them -this is no secret and has never been.
I do not have Mr Friedman's analysis at the office but if memory serves payback was on the order of 12 years not the 20+ you state. I maintain your starting this blog only to then state your objecttion to this project on specious grounds at this late hour serves only to divide us further. It does nothing to bolster your claim that you support education in town. As you know, I am also in this line of work and know from my own experience that these windows are long since past needing replacement.
Greg Jones
We are all posting about Michael Watson and Frank Gracie's SB race.
We can't afford to forget Mr. Carney in all this. It is quite possible that we do the Watson and Gracie campaigns an injustice by underestimating Mr. Carney and/or his campaign staff and his loyal supporters and followers.
I believe Mr. Carney said he has been involved in Dartmouth politics for fifty years (TM member)? In that timeframe one can gather quite a following, do a lot of networking, and get to meet and associate with people in all walks of life. These are people who no doubt will be supporting Mr. Carney if they believe his philosophy and positions on the issues. That's to be expected.
But, a warning to Mr. Watson and Mr. Gracie: the number of people who know Mr. Carney over the years and like his approach to town government may be just enough to get him reelected.
With Mr. Watson and Mr. Gracie taking away votes from one another, Mr. Carney may well get the lion's share.
If you are a Watson or Gracie supporter, please be aware.
Since no one has mentioned Mr. Carney to any great extent, it is almost as if he and his campaign have fallen off the ends of the earth. Not so, folks.
If you want either Mr. Watson or Mr. Gracie elected, don't forget that there is a third candidate, or you may be in for a rude awakening and unpleasant surprise come the morning of April 8th.
Thanks Greg!!!! Spin is the goal.
Divide and conquer.
Mr. Carney is hardly present a meetings, he sometimes closes his eyes.
On the contrary, Greg, a comment was made about cost consciousness and the money lost because of it. That argument was about energy savings as I saw it.
I do not oppose the replacement of these windows and it would make no difference anyway since the funds have already been appropriated by Town Meeting.
The payback on the windows with the state match is more than a decade. The payback for upgrading most of the boiler plants in the schools would be 2-3 years and cost about the same as the window replacement. Therefore I conclude that we would have saved more money by going after the boilers and not the windows. How am I wrong there? Whether or not the need for window replacement was more pressing is a separate question. But on an energy saving basis, it was not the best option.
And speaking of specious arguments what do window replacements have to do with supporting education?
About the windows and boiler and all the other school and town CIP. The town needs to fund these items. The library needs repairs too. We should put them all on a debt exclusion question for April. The Select Board needs to lead on this one. The Schools need to submit their energy upgrades as priority. I can't agree with mr. Jones more that the facilities affect learning. Our facilities are in terrible shape and it is the fathers and mothers of this town who have not done anything!
Excuse me but isn't this supposed to be about debating the issues and putting forth all the information. Thank you Bill for looking at the other side of the coin. Some people do not appreciate this because they have a single minded position and no one should be allowed to challenge it. Then it is called spin. Mr. Jones do you have a problem with letting everyone have an opinion or stating their knowledge of the issue?
Step up to the plate Bill and support something besides police vehicles.
The CIP Committee might need some new additions and young professionals.
I've said my piece Bill and stand by it.
Greg Jones
Sounds like the old Greg Jones is back. States his position, gets mad when someone disagrees with him and then says he doesn't want to play anymore.
So do I.
I think that what we have here is another example of the lack of planning that has plagued the town for some time. We need to have a comprehensive plan on capital improvements and maintenance which we do not have at present. Putting solar or wind power at the high school may make everyone feel good but it takes 8-10 years or more to just break even on the initial investment. We can and should do better. Upgrading the boilers or installing co-generation at the schools can generate more savings and break even in 2-3 years at most. We need to have an analysis of the relative costs and benefits of those options. That is the responsible and smart course of action. I will continue to try to get the most bang from every buck.
I hope that you will too. That may mean that you have to tell the PTO that lockers are not the top priority for capital spending. Are you willing to do it?
I shouldn't speak for Greg but I thought he has been respectful. You say it's ok to disagree but use innuendo and misleading comments when someone presents a different perspective.
What innuendo and misleading statements are you referring to?
I just asked straight out if Mr. Jones would put unseen capital improvements ahead of the latest cause celebre of the PTO if that made the most sense economically. No innuendo or misleading comments. If you have an argument, advance it to us. Vague accusations are transparent and don't inform or convince anyone.
If I wanted vague or transparent accusations I talk to diane! LOL
April 7th just can't come fast enough.
Wonder who/what will be the topic of these posts on April 8th?
Bill: your arrogance doesn't help.
Just for the record, I don't think that police cars or school books are capital expenses. Both should be provided for out of the departmental operating budgets in my opinion.
Sorry went outside to get some sunshine. I think it is misleading to say the old Greg Jones is back. He posted appropriately and ended his part of the discussion respectfully. Now, if it is ok. I am done for the day.
Bill's innuendo and misleading statements were in regard to suggesting Quinn windows are being replaced primarily as an energy efficiency measure. That's not true.
Had they been more timely replaced, I'm sure plenty would've been saved in cost of materials and labor.
An energy savings argument wasn't put forward, Bill. You were incorrect in assuming so.
Bill, I agree that books and police cars shouldn't be CIP. The problem as you and other Select Board and Finance Committee and Greg Jones know, is that the townwide pritoritized CIP needs have been put off or pushed back for years. If we need all players to come to the table for a co-CIP meeting then that is a good idea, but why is this happening so late? Town Meeting is in a few months. There has been so much energy placed on contracts that we haven't had the ability to really stare at and digest townwide CIP since the CIP part of the override failed. Some items are taken care of, but many are not. perhaps, you should recommend a SB/Dept. Head/CIP Committee/SC/SC Admin meeting. School-wise the boiler replacement seems very necessary, but the lockers and bathrooms are too. SO either recommend a debt exclusion or a huge meeting of the present powers that be. I think that you and Greg Jones have each stated your concerns, and I think the blogger bees are making this mean and political. It is a vluable discussion, but it needs to be brought up in public for all.
To Bill and Greg, thank you for discussing this capital matter. You are both honest and what you see is what you get people -refreshing- and I respect both of your views and the desire to dig deep and really look at what has been decided or is in the works. Too bad the boiler and windows can't be taken care of simultaneously, they seem of equal value for different reasons.
Am I missing something here? Not one person has blamed Diane Gilbert or Lara Stone for anything on this thread. Are we getting soft?
Pete Friedman here: I must disagree with my friend Bill Trimble on this one. I will briefly outline the analysis.
The community generally purchases projects like this with a level principle loan where the payments decrease as time goes on. Based on the cost of the heat loss through the windows, the energy savings from the windows pay almost all of the bond payments from day one. Initially, the windows are slightly negative in return (meaning that the bond payment is higher than the energy savings). The difference is small (in year one, the windows are about $18,000 in the red and decreases each year). By year 5 the windows are saving in energy more than the cost of the bond. The calculations were very conservative and did not even account for savings in infiltration losses. In a nutshell, the windows are essentially self-financing initially. In the long term, the savings are huge.
I briefed the CIP committee on my analysis and provided copies to the schools, the Select Board and the FinCom. I included sensitivity analysis of varying fuel prices and energy inflation. I provided copies to town meeting where the issue was approved.
Bill is correct that we should look at the boilers and I will work with the school administration to analyze the savings. But because the windows are essentially self-financing, it is not an either or debate. The windows are a winner and the community will reap the rewards for years to come.
Hey Bill, open mouth insert foot, huh? Just wondering in your home double, triple pane?? If so, please replace them with old single pane windows immediately and tell us all if you don't feel a difference. If you have trouble finding some I still have my old 50 year old single payne's in my cellar. You can have them for free if ya like.
Thank you Mr. Friedman. It's nice to have someone post with the facts. I feel responsible with bringing up the subject of efficiency. The new boiler would be nice, too; but I'm not holding my breath.
Would a new boiler save more money than new windows? I think we need to replace both, but if the windows aren't leaking rain water, would it be better to replace the boiler first? Just asking.
Read Mr. Friedman's comment.
Then read it again
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