I had to visit the Town Clerk today to pick up a form. Since I was unable to attend the working session meeting of the Select Board on Monday, I thought as long as I was in town hall I'd go up to the Select Board office and get a copy of the minutes of the meeting. When I asked the clerk at the desk for the minutes, she said I could not have them because they had not been approved. I said they are public records and I had read the Public Records brochure from the Attorney General which states they don't have to be approved to be released. She said she didn't think they could be released but would check with Mike Gagne. She went to another office and returned. She said Mike said not only would they not give me the minutes but that I would have to file a written request to get them. I said OK, I will file a written request and I left the office. Now let me point out that I asked for the minutes of an open public meeting, not an executive session. I could have attended the meeting and heard everything that was said, but now I am told I can't have the minutes. Does that make sense to you?
The Attorney General's brochure on public meetings (link here) says,
When must minutes of an open meeting be made available to the public?
Minutes of open meetings, regardless of form, are public and must be made available at the close of the meeting.
There is no requirement that the minutes be transcribed or approved before they are made public. A records custodian should clearly mark all such minutes “unofficial.” Minutes of prior open meetings, regardless of form, should be reviewed and accepted promptly. Copies of the minutes of all open meetings should be readily available. Records custodians are strongly encouraged to waive all fees associated with the minutes of open meetings.
As to the need for the request to be in writing it says,
Must my request be in writing and do I need to use a specific form?
A written request is not required but it is recommended. An oral request, made in person (not by telephone), is valid under the Public Records Law. To appeal the records custodian’s response, however, a request must be in writing.
I will return to the office tomorrow, armed with the brochure from the Attorney General, and I will ask for the minutes. If I don't get them, the Attorney General and District Attorney will be hearing from me about this clear violation of the Public Records Act. But why would I be forced to jump through these hoops? It seem to me that this is just a tactic to intimidate those with less resolve or knowledge than I have from finding out what their government is doing. Come on, this was an open public meeting and a member of the public asked what went on, why not just tell them. This sort of behavior on the part of our town employees is what leads to suspicion and mistrust. I am sure that nothing of particular controversy occurred at the meeting. What could be the big deal about providing the minutes?
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I am very disturbed about the fact that our town has decided to shut the public out and refuse to allow a citizen to read minutes from a public meeting. We need OPEN government! How do you build TRUST that way? This appears to be an issue about control and power.
It sounds to me that the Clerk just wanted to have the Board review the minutes, probably for spelling errors and to assure they were accurate. No big conspiracy theory there. Mr. Trimble and other's posting here seem to want to create distrust and jump on any issue to inflame the public.
anonymous,apparently you didn't read what the attorney general's brochure clearly states regarding the availability of open meeting minutes to the public.
Please! I don't think Mr. Trimble cares about spelling errors! He said he has attended some of these minutes in the past, so what's the big deal.
Citizens have a right to read these minutes as stated by law, so why is the town admin. using power & control to keep them from ANY citizen.
It should not be made difficult for citizens! That's not being OPEN! He should not have to write a letter. This is not the way a town should operate!
This is just another example of why it is so important to have more open, transparent government in Dartmouth.
It's a good thing to have citizens who are informed. Don't you think?
Has anybody looked into the fact thay they've had Executive Sessions before open meeting, which is supposedly against the law?
Mr. Trimble & others are not the ones creating mistrust in our government. Inaction, confusion, divisiveness, uninformed/no planning decision making, and unwillingness to represent the taxpayers are the causes of mistrust. Town leaders have no business pointing fingers at its citizens for this disaster.
Blah..Blah...Blah...Oh my must be a conspiracy. How about just watching the reruns and stop looking for something to fan the flames. Oh that's right Bill I forgot your frustrated.
You know Bill the more we get to see your untrusting behavior the more I'm convinced your Gilbert clone. A lifelong watchdog that can't accomplish anything.
meeooow!!! Watch it Bill the claws are coming out again. Confused as to why Ms. Gilbert is being brought into this. One can only guess.
So interesting when you can't add anything rational to the discussion, the attacks start.
Let's attack the person who is not allowed to see our SB minutes that are public information. That makes sense!
No wonder we're in this mess with our current SB!!
Instead of directing Mr. Gagne, they come to his rescue when he is clearly on power trip here!
You people need to get a life!
This has to do with open government and the right of the electorate to participate. We have to be able to know what's going on and why. So I subscribe to the trust, but verify camp. My point is that these are public records and, as such, are required to be made available to the public. It's bad enough I have to go to town hall to get them. I think they should be published on line as soon after the meeting as possible. Not only is that not done, you can't even see them if you go in. That is just not right and is, in fact, against the law as I read it.
I am happy to be compared to Ms. Gilbert. I agree with most of her stands on open government, transparency, and fiscal responsibility. In other areas, such as the split tax, we may not agree. If I'm elected, then the two of us are that much closer to getting things done. As I have watched the board over the past few years, I feel Ms. Gilbert has been in the right more often than not. She and I, if elected, have only one vote each on a 5 member board. Her role has been to question and challenge the status quo. She has done that effectively despite support from the remainder of the board for the status quo. I hope my election will be a step in the direction of changing that status quo. As I see it, this election comes down to that, do you want to continue as before or change direction. I believe the town must change the way it does business and very soon. That's what I will push for and I would hope Ms. Gilbert and others on the board would join me.
Bill, change can is good but it must come with temperance and respect to consequences. Many of Ms. Gilbert's opinions and decisions appear at least to me to be just a challenge to the status quo with no thought to the consequences. It is easy to constantly challenge existing procedures and policies but to challenge with no plausible solution to the problem is not helpful, as it has only served to broadened the division in our town. As well as increased the level of mistrust for all of our town officials and administrators, which in turn has led us to where, we are now.
And yes I too now post anonymously for I honestly fear retribution for making such statements so I suspect you will not allow my post (but at least you will read it). As I have seen much in the way of nasty politics at the hand of Ms. Gilbert, which I hope, Bill you don't agree with nor choose to emulate if you are elected.
What are the dire consequences of openness, transparency, and fiscal responsibility? It seems to me that the consequenes are an informed electorate who knows what their government is doing on their behalf and with their money. If the voters don't trust their government, we cannot get things done. To pin that on Ms. Gilbert is shooting the messenger in my view. Our town leaders are mistrusted because they have not been open, transparent, and fiscally responsible not because Ms. Gilbert has raised questions. I have to laugh at the frequent assertions that Dartmouth is well run while we teeter on the brink of bankruptcy. How do those who spout this stuff think we got here? By accident? Because Diane Gilbert kept her own counsel and didn't agree with the rest? I think it is folly rather than chance that is the cause. I ask you to read my post titled The emperor has no clothes. I think the town is better served by those who challenge and question than by those who go along to preserve a false unity. Do you get my point?
Let me ask you this Bill do you think it open and transparent to go behind her fellow select board members backs and request a written opinion from the DOR regarding three SB members decision to announce their support of the split tax prior to the vote as a nullification of that vote? Well that is what Ms. Gilbert did and the response was returned to Michael Gagne, which is the only reason why it is public knowledge now as it was discussed at one of the working sessions of the SB…and the DOR opinion was no it was perfectly legal and the split tax vote still stands. No I am not a SB member but I once again realize that I would put myself in harms way with Ms. Gilbert if I were to say who I am for look what she tried to do to her own colleagues. So Bill if you don’t believe what I am saying please by all means contact Michael Gagne himself or a Select Board member since you don’t appear to have a very good working relationship with Michael right now…honestly Bill I am shocked by your behavior in demanding meeting minutes for how do you ever expect to accomplish anything for Dartmouth by demanding things on terms?
I made no demands, I made a Public Records request in accordance with the law. I have a right to do so, as does every citizen. The state and town have a duty to follow the laws. Those are my terms.
Ms. Gilbert has a right to her opinion as well. If she has a question about the legality of a proceeding, she is within her rights to request a ruling from the DOR. I have no problem with making sure that all the proceedings of the town conform to the law. Why would Mike Gagne, other members of the Select Board or yourself?
Even at the large meeting with all the parents and children, Ms. Gilbert cautioned that she felt the issue could only be addressed at the meeting where the assessor presents the levy information. She reiterated that sentiment at Select Board meetings afterward. It was no secret that she didn't think it was proper to promise to vote before that meeting. She said so publicly and repeatedly. I don't recall, Ms. Gilbert unlike some others on the Select Board, being uncivil, strident or nasty. You are probably safe on that front.
Bill I was speaking to your comment about Ms. Gilberts openness and transparency which if she were at all times then why wouldn't she let the other members of the board know what she was doing? For simply saying that you question the legality to their face and actually writing to the DOR for a written opinion is quite a difference. Which is why the DOR returned their opinion to the Executive Administrator of the town so that it could be made public for do you really think for one moment that Ms. Gilbert would have made that finding public knowledge on her own.... apparently the DOR didn't.
Yes BillT it would be great to have the meetings posted on line as soon as possible after each meeting is held. It ruly would be a wonderful thing, just like the Town of Barnstable does as you have mentioned in other blogs. But the fact of the matter is the personnel to make such things happen does not exist so it won't be happening any time soon. You make a mountain out of not gettting access to the meeting minutes as soon as you ask, well I'm sure you will get them and the reasoning for the delay I am sure has more to do with personell shortages and people being asked to wear multiple hats than any desire to keep the public from knowing what's going on. Makes a great story though for those that need to demonize the town employees even more than is being done now.
I would assume that someone at the Town Hall is preparing the minutes of meetings on a software program, such as MS Word, not a manual typewriter. Posting those minutes on the internet is a matter of clicking a button, just as you did when posting your comment. Doesn't take very long.
If you take time to read my post again, you'll see that I was not told they had not had time to prepare the minutes, they wanted me to wait until they were approved and to file a request in writing. Both approval and written requests are not needed to release public records. That is my point.
It seems to me that if Ms. Gilbert or any other Select Board member wants to seek advice on matters before them with the DOR or any other person, agency or group, that's a good thing. I don't think that the Select Board has to be comprised of people who act in lock step. If elected, I certainly do and will have differences with members of the Select Board. I realize it is just a difference of opinion, not a reason for incivility or undermining another's position. Hearing from all sides of an issue moves us closer to better solutions in my opinion. I would reach out to everyone for their input and comment before making a decision, rather than insist that only those who agree be given a voice. That's what representative government is all about.
Those items may not be required to release meeting minutes BillT but it is not unreasonable to ask for those things before releasing them to the public. As far as typing into a Word type program to record the meeting minutes, I'm not aware that there is a secretary at these working session meetings, rather a tape recorder so any meeting minutes would require transcription prior to being posted. Not a big deal but with the limited stafff that I am sure you would acknowledge exists it does take some time. Does not point to any type of closed government that some posters want to latch onto.
Distrust is inevitable when nothing is disclosed, contracts have skyrocketed, not to mention re-negotiated mid-term.
The town is in dire straits.
Openness and facing these facts head on will bring trust back.
The defensiveness scares me, is there something to hide?
Yep I'd assume 'they're' trying to hide something. You just never know any more.
Please refer to my original post, the second to last and last sentence, which read, "I am sure that nothing of particular controversy occurred at the meeting. What could be the big deal about providing the minutes?"
BillT - did'nt mean to imply it was you who said they were trying to hide something, I did read your caveat in your original blog. I was refering to anonymous and those like him/her who only need the whiff of impropriety to scream 'coverup' conspiracy'. That's why it's very important to be careful about how and what gets said. People over-reach, jump to conclusions which is exactly what anonymous has done.
Me thinks the "put it in writing request" had more to do with being difficult than with hiding something - but either way is certainly disturbing!
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