Matt Yglesias has an excellent post here about the fact that rights are not afforded to suspects when the authorities decide it is appropriate but to all people all the time. It is an essential part of our democracy and these rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution.
The crux of Matt's argument is ...
... that the FBI and/or President do not decide to give a suspect rights. A suspect has rights that are guaranteed by our basic law, the Constitution, and the government is required to inform them of those rights.
Friday, February 5, 2010
Constitutional rights and terrorists
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We love to quote bits and pieces from authoritative documents in order to prove our particular point of view .... but I wondered if anyone actually read the document in order to place those excerpts into their proper context ?
If you read the “the Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution “ you see the word “ people’ used liberally as in :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble
The right of the people to be secure in their persons......
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces ......
.... certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution..., are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Who are the ‘people’ to whom the underling document refers ? For that we have to look to the very first words of the U.S. Constitution ... the Preamble :
Preamble :
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
It is clear that the founding fathers intended the constitution to protect ‘ourselves’, the ‘people of the United States’, from injustices that may come from within and from without. Nowhere does it attempt to project, or imply to project, those protections on anyone that is not a citizen of the United States, quite the contrary. The purpose of the amendment is to provide “ for the common defense “ of “ we the people “ .
The President has no authority under the Constitution to confer the rights of the U.S. Constitution upon non-citizens.
As one of our greatest founding fathers, Ronald Reagan, said,
"Governments that must answer to their peoples do not launch wars of aggression. That's why the American people cannot close their eyes to abuses of human rights and injustice, whether they occur among friend or adversary or even on our own shores. "
Bill,
Maybe I am wrong, but I do believe that Ronald Regan was the oldest president to ever serve ; but a founding father ? ..... he was not THAT old :)
Maybe this quote is what threw me off
"Thomas Jefferson once said, 'We should never judge a president by his age, only by his works.' And ever since he told me that, I stopped worrying."
Greg,
Did you speak out against thie civil court trials of the many terrorists caught within our borders?
If you didn't, then you are just against the democratic president and took the advice of reagan to never speak ill of another "republican" or in your case "conservative".
I would just like to see Americans getting as much as illegal aliens in our country get. Why should they be allowed to take from our citizens?
American people cannot close their eyes to abuses of human rights and injustice, whether they occur among friend or adversary or even on our own shores. "
How exactly is there in injustice or violation of human rights with a military tribunal instead of offering terrorists "Constitutional" rights?
What do illegals aliens get that citizens do not?
The young man who attempted to blow up a plane was arrested by the police and charged with crimes. Just as many other criminals are arrested, charged and tried. The first World Trade Center bombers were tried in civilian court, the Shoe Bomber tried in civilian court. Many others as well. We are not a banana republic where the military runs our nation. At least, not yet.
What would be the reason for turning a criminal over to the military justice system? Why for this one and not for others?
Illegal aliens get $$$$ that rightfully belongs to our US citizens. What part of "illegal" don't you understand? Oh, right: we can use the term "with discretion" and "waiver" it if we want to.
Is anyone else sick of seeing people who are not rightfully here usurping from us, especially the elderly, many who came here from Europe and learned the language and were overjoyed to become citizens and then sent their sons to fight and defend THEIR country?
I'm not talking about justice and trials and terrorists. I'm talking about the illegals walking and (illegally) working among us.
Don't start the "human rights and injustice" stuff. "Human rights and JUSTICE in the US starts for US (get, it, "us," you and me) citizens. Or at least, it should.
The treatment of immigrants in this country is one of the blackest chapters of our history and continues today. White Europeans were sometimes welcome, although often resented, especially if you didn't speak English. If you were black or brown or Oriental, you were more often than not treated unfairly and denied equal rights and a path to citizenship. I don't see much change in that situation today.
I have no quarrel with securing our borders. It ought to be done.
But if we are seriously against allowing illegal entrants to work here, the solution is simple. Fine the employers who hire them. That will not happen because it would force many corporations to pay a fine or pay higher wages.
Almost everything that you eat has been delivered to your table by the labor of those not legally in the country. Fruits, vegetables, wheat, corn, meat, fish, and most other food is picked, harvested or processed by illegal immigrants. I know farmers in Minnesota and New York who are learning Spanish so they can better communicate with those who make it possible to bring their produce to market.
Somewhere near 5% of our population are undocumented workers. They are doing the hardest, dirtiest work, pay taxes, rents, and spend their money here. They do not get unemployment insurance or welfare or any other social safety net programs. They are preyed upon by unscrupulous citizens and criminals and have little recourse about that.
I pity the poor immigrant and the untenable position that we have placed them in. They are doing work which must be done, that others won't do for the same wages, and have to live in fear in order to do it. They are robbed of dignity and rights by our unwillingness to address the problem of needed immigration reform.
A man breaks into your home, Bill.
He sits at your table and eats the food you provided for your family.
He sleeps in the bed you bought for your children.
He soaks up your heat and he burns your electricity.
He goes with you to the doctor and uses up the dollars you earned to care for your family.
He goes to work with you, works some of your hours and takes home some of your pay.
You get fed up and call the police and I say to you : Look at, “ the untenable position that (you) have placed (him) in. “
Whether a man breaks into your home or your nation, he is steeling from you and deserves all the compassion given to any other common crook.
Even if you dismiss this argument, there can be no argument that he is robbing the future from those who seek to come here legally. Of those who spend years following the immigration laws, waiting to be accepted legally into this great nation of ours; What of them ?
What of the spot in our society that they had their eye on ? That spot is now gone, taken by one who broke all the rules, followed no laws and disregarded the dreams and hopes of the all those who played fairly.
A family, like a nation, can only absorb so much additional burden over any one period of time. A constant flood of outlaw immigrants dwarfs our abilities to provide for, while draining our resources at an unsustainable rate. Their unplanned-for-presence degrades life for us all and deprives those legal immigrants of the jobs they need and the help they deserve, ultimately robbing them of the quality of life they came here to enjoy.
There is a reason these outlaw immigrants are called “ Illegal “.
My pity is reserved for the poor LEGAL immigrant and the untenable position that we have placed them in.
I pity the poor immigrant and the untenable position that we have placed them in.
Bill PLEASE!! They placed themselves in this position. No one dragged them over our boarders illegally, at least not since 1863.
But that is not the situation, Greg.
A man is forced to leave his home by poverty and despair and comes to my house.
He works long and hard to earn enough to live and provide shelter for himself.
He goes to the doctor and is forced to pay cash up front.
He pays taxes and his labor and his money, earned by the sweat of his brow, contributes more to the economy than his presence costs me.
From Luke, Chapter 6. The speaker is Christ.
"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them."
Now I know why there's a reason to separate church from state.
Stop using the Bible to justify taking from decent human beings that live LEGALLY in the US; that are PROUD to be US citizens, many who have worked and studied and learned the ENGLISH language to become citizens, whose proudest moment was their swearing in as US citizens.
Why should I, my children, and grandchildren have to pay for those "poor desperate souls" who are labeled "illegal" but are afforded the same opportunity to live here "legally," for all intensive purposes? What a joke! "Illegal." You apparently will not accept the meaning of that word as it is defined in the ENGLISH dictionary.
They live in fear?. What did they expect? There is a reason why they are labeled "illegal." It stands to reason someone who has done something wrong would live in fear and keep a low profile.
Just where and when do you draw the line? When MORE of our own AMERICAN CITIZENS reach the poverty level because your religious tenets tell me to turn the other cheek?
You cite, "Somewhere near 5% of our population are undocumented workers." "Undocumented." Nice euphemism for "ILLEGAL," Bill.
Do you have a statistic on the percentage of homeless in our country? Do you have a statistic on how many of our elderly are going without heat this winter, or how many are forced to choose between their medication or their heat?
Do you have the statistics on how many children are living with abusive or addicted parents, if there even are two parents in the household?
How many parents, both mother and father, are working two or three jobs to make ends meet? How many kids are latchkey kids?
I would be willing to bet the statistics in all of the above are higher than your "poor" 5% of "undocumented" (AKA ILLEGAL) immigrants.
Don't spout the Bible to justify taking from the deserving, just because my heart doesn't bleed for them, as apparently yours does.
What next Bill,
Shall we disband the police, surely we don't need them according to you. If someone steals from you, offer them your tunic as well???
He pays taxes and his labor and his money, earned by the sweat of his brow, contributes more to the economy than his presence costs me.
How does an illegal pay taxes with no Social Secuity number Bill? Please enlighten me!
Bill,
You know the world does not work that way.
The breadbasket is not endless ... the Arc could not hold everyone and the bottomless cup of coffee exists only at I-Hop :) There are finite limits to everything.
In order for the golden goose to keep on giving the golden eggs it first has to survive. If it doesn’t, our goose is cooked [ pardon the pun ] .
If the US economy falters, or fails, it is less able, or completely unable, to provide meaningful assistance to anyone, including ourselves. What would you then say to those who come looking for help ? Haiti is a prime example of our weakness ; we are unable to provide the copious help required to rebuild that nation.
Well intentioned phrases and words of faith don’t put food on the table or tangable hope in peoples hearts or a meaningful future in peoples lives.
The only way that assistance can be given is from a position of stength. A weak man can not lift the heavy stone pinning another down and the poor man can not buy food for a starving sole or proide a job for one who has none.
The best thing we can do to aid others is to keep ourselves, and our economy, strong so we are in a position to do what needs to be done without degrading our ability to ‘ do for others what we would have them do for us.’
please Bill - for every illegal alien that pays the doctor from their own hard earned money there are three in lne at the emergency room who do no such thing.
If we were all truly Christians, would there be any homeless or hungry? You cannot steal what I freely give. The truth is that Jesus was a dangerous radical and the powers that be, then and now, know it. His credo is not dangerous to the political establishment, whether emperor or democracy. He challenges each of us to abandon our selfishness and jealousy, to serve each other, and live in harmony. If you examine the central tenets of the world's great religions, you will find that same message, selflessness, service, and humility are the path to happiness and fulfillment.
We live in the richest nation in the world, millions are paid in bonuses to bankers and Wall Street after they failed to exercise good judgment and stuck us with the bill, and you think the big problem is a poor illegal worker who is trying to scrape together a living in a meat packing plant or harvesting crops?
I think the problem is unregulated and greedy people who are taking away your money and wealth and don't want to have to pay their share of taxes. Why are you not railing against the best and brightest who robbed billions from your investments and retirement accounts with their fees and bonuses. This was done by gaming the system, credit default swaps and securities that were disguised with unintellegible statistics. Ask yourself did they honestly think that real estate would always increase? What is the historical record on that?
Then they use their corporate media to convince you that it is all the fault of poor people. Divide and conquer has been the proven method through the centuries. The worker, illegal if you must, is just like you and me. They are trying to make a life and the fruits of their labor have greater worth than their pay. If your labor contributes to the greater economy and provides wealth for you and others, then I believe that their labor does as well. They aren't eating your lunch, they make it possible for you to eat lunch without reaping the grain or milling the flour. Economies are not zero sum games. Some else's wages are not stolen from mine. Their production does not reduce mine, it increases the total. Our economy will not collapse due to the labor of workers even illegal ones. The greedy and unscrupulous will steal our wealth and walk away laughing while we fight for scraps from the table.
The illegal worker is NOT like you and me.
Stop INSULTING the rest of us that work or have worked hard to earn a living for our families. While I'm at it, stop DEGRADING the men and women in our Armed Forces who, on a daily basis, are serving in the face of danger from people who hate us and hate our intrusion in their country, or who have sacrificed their lives so that YOU and I can live a decent life here in OUR country. I think I heard you mention once that you are a veteran? Think about it.
I see that having no other argument, you are now going to take offense at my position. What is the difference between you and the illegal worker besides your place of birth? They work, you work.
I am a veteran and I will not be lectured about service. Just because the media can do a hatchet job on a candidate who volunteered for duty and was wounded multiple times in combat over one that used his family influence to get a safe assignment and then did not even complete that service, does not mean that most people can not tell the difference. Our service men and women deserve our thanks but that does not include knee jerk reverence for the national security state on my part. Thousands of our servicemen have been killed and maimed overseas in an ill-advised and deceitful attack and occupation on a nation that was no threat to us whatsoever. To what end I ask you? We owe a debt of gratitude to those who serve but I reject your premise that the policy they did not choose but try to carry out, made us or keeps us safe. The truth is that the national security apparatus of the country, not the servicemen but the corporate interests that equip and supply them, are one of the main reasons that our country is losing its competitive edge. We spend hundreds of billions for defenses that we don't need and don't work. Money that would be better spent on infrastructure, education, health care, and basic science. Meanwhile the rest of the world invests in their people and their productive industries. Your money goes for a new jet fighter which over its life produces nothing but more expense. They build new factories, schools, and hospitals that provide jobs and a better life. Grumman and KBR win, you lose, your job goes elsewhere. So wrap yourself in the flag if you choose, but don't think that others can't see through that. Our founding fathers knew that there was great danger in standing armies and set up our country with civilian leadership of the military. Radicals like General and President Dwight Eisenhower have warned about the dangers of the military industrial state to our well being as a nation. Think about those things.
Bill
I hope you enjoy the 1 vote I gave you last election. It is the last one you will from me in your lifetime.
History has taught us again and again that a ready and able military is vital to a nations survival.
Ask Poland or France what happens when you "trust" your neighbor. Ask Kuwait, Ask any of the war torn countries in Africa run by warlords.
It would be great if we didn't need to spend billions on our SAFETY but WE do.
Get your head out of the sand, the biggest reason we have survived is our military strengh.
perhaps you would like some quotes from FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, George Washington, or Abe Lincoln?
Stick to local politics, at least you can't screw up the world from your monday night chair in Dartmouth.
I see greg and the many others want to punish illegal immigrants...but say NOTHING about the corporation that hires them...if we punish the businesses extensively where it would be detrimental to their bottom line...you would see a multitude of illegal imigrants go home...WE AREEEING IT NOW WITH THE RECESSION...punish the carrot danglers.
Okay, everyone, am I the ONLY one on this blog that understands the meaning of "illegal"?
Love your using the "do unto others" quote, Bill. Am I to understand that you have no problem making life comfortable for the illegal aliens, all the while sacrificing your (and mine) Chase Rd. neighbors? No problem letting them live under less-than-desirable- conditions, is there? Of course, you are of the mind that there will be no less-than-desirable- conditions, and if there are, they will be minimal at best. Where does all this Christianity you are resorting to spouting come into play?
You know what that's called? Being a hypocrite.
I don't know what history you read but I can assure you that empires with far flung military commitments soon collapse. Name one that has not.
You have bought the corporate message, hook, line, and sinker.
There are no credible military threats to our nation at this time in history. Did the Soviet military power ensure their survival, did the English subdue their colonies in North America?
Billions to protect us from whom? A bunch of guys hiding in caves? China, our largest trading partner? Who are we threatened by and how are armor divisions, aircraft carrier fleets, and nuclear missiles going to counter that threat?
We are at much greater risk by not living up to our ideals. I am ashamed that the US Senate has debated whether or not we should torture those in our custody, I am shocked that US citizens have been arrested and held without trial or charge in our own land, I am outraged that spies intercept my communications without warrant or cause, I am saddened that we bomb foreign lands and kill innocent people without remorse or apology and by remote control to boot, I am outraged that people go hungry and are not fed and are sick and not cared for in the richest nation in the world. You should be too.
Corporate fascism is what we are becoming in this country...people want to elect CEOs to elected office, give them the right to free speech, give them tax breaks and TIFs, (when most dont pay taxes anyway...they run our elections(privatization) they run our military(XE,blackwater).
We can be outraged at all that you have mentioned. We can also be outraged at the illegal aliens that, one way or another, do take our money.
Am I mistaken that, if a woman, illegally in the US, gives birth, her child is automatically a US citizen?
I don't know what history you read but I can assure you that empires with far flung military commitments soon collapse. Name one that has not.
The Roman Empire lasted almost 700 years.
The British Empire lasted almost 500 years.
Persian Empire 1600 years!!
The Ottoman Empire??
I didn't see any of these collapsing quickly. If fact part of the reason for the fall of the Roman Empire was negotiating with TERRORISTS.
In the early years of the 5th Century AD the mighty nobles of Rome were negotiating with Alaric, the chief of the invading barbarians for their comfortable lives, rather than fighting the barbarians. Twice they paid him off and twice he took the money and left. The third time, however, in 410 AD he captured Rome and sacked the city.
I am sure you know history repeats itself Bill. Learn from the past PLEASE before it is too late.
I am shocked that US citizens have been arrested and held without trial or charge in our own land.
Jose Padilla, a former gang member and U.S. citizen arrested in Chicago in 2002 and a month later designated an "enemy combatant" by President Bush. The government contends that Padilla trained at al Qaeda camps and was planning to blow up apartment buildings in the United States. Padilla has been held without trial in a U.S. naval brig for more than three years, and his case has ignited a fierce battle over the balance between civil liberties and the government's power to fight terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001,
Cry me a river for a criminal who was planning terrorist attacks on civilians in the U.S. WE can agree to disagree on him.
The other citizen held without charges was arrested in Afghanistan fighting with the Taliban.. He is lucky to be in prison instead of a box.
That's it Bill, 2 people out of 300 million.
So it is OK with you if the government holds a person without charge or trial? Jose Padilla was never charged with the things that you mentioned. The government said he did those things when they arrested him but never presented any evidence in a court to back it up. I find that very troubling. Why don't you? Corporate dupe Tea Party members decry the loss of constitutional government but have nothing to say when a citizen is jailed and held without any charges. That goes against our basic principles and was the main impetus behind the Magna Carta.
NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land
The government, at the time the king, could throw you into the dungeon and keep you there. Do you think that is a good state of affairs?
I can only assume that you have never read the history of the empires that you mention. When the Visigoths sacked Rome the "Emperor" was essentially the ruler of the city of Rome. The Eastern empire had broken away centuries earlier. The empire had for centuries before that descended into a series of military dictatorships.
The Persian "Empire" existed in name only for much of the 1600 years that you tout. Starting with Alexander, the region was invaded and ruled by many different groups, Greeks, Parthians, Mongols, Arabs, Turks and British to name a few.
The British empire can probably only be credited with that title from 1815 after Napoleon's defeat to 1914 at the beginning of the First World War. If you wish to point to that as a model for our country, read the history. It's a pretty ugly account of exploitation and mistreatment of many people around the world.
In OUR history over 5 million people have been held as POW's. Padilla is clearly an enemy during a time of war and can/should be held until the end of hostilities.
POW's do not get trials, they are held under the rules of the red cross and Geneva conventions (unless deemed unlawful enemy combatants) they are given comfortable living conditions (cell), able to write letters and in some circumstances even visitors.
So yes Bill I have no problem with the way Padilla is being held.
Bill Trimble said "I think the problem is unregulated and greedy people who are taking away your money and wealth and don't want to have to pay their share of taxes."
A hypocrite if I ever saw one!
You should know first hand that certain people get more rights than others depending on the political gain.
You won't get my vote twice eitjer.
"I think the problem is" the illegal aliens cutting into the money that rightfully belongs to US citizens.
Bill, sometimes right wing dribble that is not factual hurts when you are set in ideological ways, as most posters on this blog are.
They can not see the forest through the trees.
Many people on this blog still think tax breaks to the rich and big business creates jobs.
I challene the finance committee to weigh in on this one.
How does giving money to business in the form of tax breaks and subsidies spur demand.
Demand is created by the consumer and that in itself spurs business growth.
Simple economics!
FYI Illegal workers are given special numbers by the IRS so they can pay taxes. Sad but true. Seems a bit ironic but the government will do anything for more revenue.
Many people on this blog still think tax breaks to the rich and big business creates jobs.
Real economic growth averaged 3.2 percent during the Reagan years versus 2.8 percent during the Ford-Carter years and 2.1 percent during the Bush-Clinton years.
Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s. The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years.
When Reagan took office in 1981, the unemployment rate was 7.6 percent. In the recession of 1981-82, that rate peaked at 9.7 percent, but it fell continuously for the next seven years. When Reagan left office, the unemployment rate was 5.5 percent. This reduction in joblessness was a clear triumph of the Reagan program.
income tax revenues grew substantially in the 1980s. In 1981 income tax receipts totaled $347 billion; in 1989 they totaled $549 billion, a 58 percent increase. In fact, income tax collections grew only slightly slower in the 1980s than in the 1990s despite income tax rate reductions in the Reagan years and increases in the Bush-Clinton years. Real income tax revenues rose by 16.3 percent from 1982 to 1989 after the top income tax rate had been reduced from 70 percent to 50 percent in 1983, and then to 28 percent in 1986. According to the latest (August 1996) Congressional Budget Office (CBO) forecast, real income tax revenues will have grown by 17.9 percent from 1990 to 1997, following the raising of the top income tax rate from 28 percent to 31 percent in 1990 and then to 39.6 percent in 1993. [19] On a purely static basis, the 1990 tax increase raised $380 billion less in income tax revenues from 1991 to 1995 than had been predicted. [20]
Any questions?
Yes, I do have questions. You stated
"Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years."
The Congressional Budget office study of 2007 states your numbers are misleading. While media income grew, that was because the top 1% grew at a rate of 201%...but if you look at real numbers regarding the middle 20%, income actually only increased 1% over 28 years.
Also you consider the tax breaks caused the unemployment to fall....he brought income tax down to ONLY 50% when it started falling...what do you say today...income rates are at 35%...we should be overwealmed with jobs.
Economic growth was 3.2? That is pretty stagnant...TODAY our economy grew at a higher rate but yet we are still in recession.
http://www.alternet.org/economy/118002/financial_meltdown_provides_final_verdict_on_reaganomics/?page=1
feel free to read the CBO report that I quote.
To say median income rose, albeit because the top 1% realized all the increase..it's ok
basically we see when you lump EVERYONE into one category it looks good....but if you break up incomes brackets...you will see...ALL of the increase was not seen by anyone in the workforce...it was seen by the owners...nothing trickled DOWN....time to look at employees as assets and not liabilities.
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